00:00 - Jared Strober (Host)
If you have a little bit of information that others just don't have, it really changes the game for you, and it's really only one piece of information that actually can make it so that you have a real sustainable edge. Can you use college football data in NFL or, like you know, do those two have to be separate? One of the best things about BetStamp is talking to Johnny, and you know he is able to.
00:23 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
That's one of the best things. I would say that's one of the worst things for me, Jerry.
00:26 - Jared Strober (Host)
I think the biggest thing is like if you're expecting something to happen 70% of the time, it better actually happen 70% of the time.
00:33 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
I'm going to say something here that might piss some people off, but I live in the real world. Welcome to Circles Off, presented by Kalshi. I'm Rob Pizzola and I know a lot of you for the last little while have been saying, rob, where's the interviews? Are they coming back? And I promised they would be back. And they are.
01:04
And the first one coming out of this break, this little hiatus someone that I met at Bet Bash in Las Vegas a few weeks back met a lot of people there who will be featured on this channel over the course of the next six months or so, but his name is Jared Strober. He's an entrepreneur based in New York. He's the founder of Powerplay Sports, which is a quantitative sports betting company that's operating in the US and European markets right now. He previously led a sports trading desk at a company called Vatic Labs, where he developed the firm's market-making operation there. He began his career in finance at Jump Trading, went to Tulane University, got a bachelor's degree there. I think a pretty interesting story overall and something that we haven't really touched on here on Circles Off, which is market making into these prediction markets.
01:53
Now, before we get into it, I do want to remind you Kalshi is our sponsor and people are raving about it. I mean, if you haven't checked it out yet, you should. We'll put the QR code up on screen. If you do want to scan that to sign up, do so. Lots of sports options available during the season as well, and, of course, all sorts of stuff political movie reviews, things of that nature but the liquidity is now through the roof, especially with the robin hood uh integration into the product as well. So make sure you check out our sponsors at cal she. But let's do it, let's get into this interview. Jared, welcome to Circles Off. Great to have you, great to be talking to you today.
02:32 - Jared Strober (Host)
Yeah, great to be here, Super excited about it.
02:34 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
All right. So I like to start every single one of these with a brief background on yourself. You're a pretty young guy, but you've accomplished a lot in the space. You started in the trading landscape and now have moved over into sports betting, slash market making. Give everyone a brief background on yourself, what you went to school for and then how you eventually graduated into where you're at now.
02:56 - Jared Strober (Host)
Definitely. So I got into trading seven years ago. I became fascinated with single equity options, which is not, you know, not something that every 19 year old gets fascinated about. But you know I stumbled on them because it was kind of a nice time when all my friends were getting into Robin Hood and seeing Twitter and everyone posting on Twitter about options to go and buy. So I ended up finding an options arbitrage at 19. And I essentially built this options trading firm. We were doing about seven figures in revenue and I had eight people and it was super fun. I just got hooked on like the trading drug, I guess.
03:34
And you know it was in this three years where I discovered that I, you know, kind of want to spend the rest of my life trading, whether it was options or stocks or commodities or sports. And so I ended up going to a firm called Jump Trading and I was seeing kind of at an institutional level how commodities and equities were being traded. But it turned out that, you know, a lot of these big markets were solved. You know, it's really really challenging as a small player to do well there, and so I was kind of looking for the next big big thing, whether that was like crypto or sports or prediction markets. You know, to me they were all interesting.
04:10
So I ended up meeting somebody named Jacob Fortinsky, who's a mentor and a friend of mine, who runs Novig, and he essentially was like, hey, you should, you know, look into sports betting. And I had never watched sports or really participated in these sports betting markets prior, but I was hooked. I knew that like I wanted to spend the next 10, 15 years of my life doing this. So I ended up setting up a market making and sports betting firm here in New York City and I participated in these markets for about six months before I joined a hedge fund to go and bring on kind of their prediction market and sports betting team. So ran that for about a year and just left in June to start my own sports betting team here in New York City, which I'm super excited about.
04:52 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Yeah, it's interesting. We got a chance to talk a bit at Bet Bash not as much as I would have hoped, but talking to you about it here, very curious in the jump from finance into sports betting or sports trading, given that you're jumping into, like a lower liquidity pool. Was that kind of a concern for you at first, or were you just kind of excited about that type of venture?
05:15 - Jared Strober (Host)
Yeah, it was certainly a concern.
05:17
You know I got banned from sports books quite quickly.
05:19
I think a lot of people know intuitively not to submit orders with, like you know, 13 cents or 15 cents, but my orders kind of stood out to the traders at MGM and DraftKings, making it very easy for them to ban me quickly, which was certainly an unfortunate thing for me.
05:37
But you know, not only is it low liquidity, but there's also not a lot of data. So you know what I'm coming from is there are billions, if not you know, tens of billions of data points that I can go and look at and kind of create trading strategies about. But you know, with sports it's much harder to build these models, for you know NFL, when there's really only 18 games a season, which makes all of the questions in sports way more interesting than they otherwise could be, because in traditional finance, you know you can run all these really complicated statistical models and in sports, you know that might not be the case. So not only is there less liquidity, there's also less data and the relationships matter a lot more, which is something that I, you know, love, because to get you know outs or places to bet, you need to actually go be friends and talk to people who you know have access to liquidity.
06:23 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Right, I want to dig into the data problem a little bit later on as well. But in prepping for this interview I asked around about you, as I do with pretty much any interview. We have a mutual friend in Julian Packer, who's CTO of Betstamp as well, and I messaged you as well. And you told me you know, quote unquote that you are a quant treating sports like a giant asset class. In simple terms, what does that mean on a day-to-day level?
06:53 - Jared Strober (Host)
Yeah. So you know, for me, like a lot of people come into the sports betting world from like poker or AP stuff and, you know, grew up in the gambling mindset and I grew up more in the math and computer science space than I did in the in the gambling mindset and I grew up more in the math and computer science space than I did in the in the gambling space. I'm an okay poker player. I'm, you know, nothing great.
07:11
I did a little bit of studying on GTO wizard, but you know, for the most part, I, you know, came from finance and to me what that means is like I'm trying to make pretty good decisions but not like the best decision on what to bet on, and what I mean by that is like when you come from traditional finance, you can make the best possible decision with all of the data in the world, right, like I can run these crazy models which are going to be able to solve like a really great problem for me. But in sports, you know, honing in on this data point which is really, really important, you know, can answer a lot of these questions but it doesn't paint the whole picture. Like somebody might be injured and somebody might have more information than you. But it makes it a really interesting problem because, at the end of the day, you're making, you know the best decision you can with the data that you have.
07:56 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Yeah, so I do want to talk about some of those differences as well as we move on here, but I also want to talk about the similarities. Like for you, what feels the same between hedge fund style quant work and sports trading.
08:11 - Jared Strober (Host)
Yeah, well, I think you know the coding and the actual order book format, as we, you know, go to prediction markets and kind of.
08:19
The most exciting piece about sports betting to me right now is that there are order books that I can go and look at which look really, really similar to what I'm used to.
08:29
For me, coming from traditional finance, I'm looking at a bid and I'm looking at an ask, and they're quoted in cents or dollars, but now they're quoted in American odds or decimal odds. So those are the real differences, but the basics are the same and that is super, super exciting. So the day to day looks pretty similar to what it did when I was doing options or equities or commodities, which is, you know what does having $100 on one side and $200 on the other side actually mean? You know, like, how is the order book going to transform when people add more liquidity or take away liquidity, and what do each of the orders individually tell you about the direction of the price? And there's a lot of these like really cool order book features that you know you can bring over from traditional finance to sports betting, which you know previously hadn't been done, if you're here in the US and don't have access to that fair matchbook.
09:22 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Yeah, sorry to cut you off. This is super interesting to me because this is like the exact opposite of my experience. Right, you come from a finance background. I don't. I've been betting since I was 16 years old, so I'm very used to like the traditional formats and, for me, learning the prediction markets and order flow and things of that nature, that was very convoluted to me. So it's actually funny to hear someone who presents it as the is the exact opposite.
09:51 - Jared Strober (Host)
Yeah, to me it was like a blessing in disguise, you know I'm. When I looked at a sports book the first time, it looked very foreign to me. And when I look at a calci or a polymarket or a fan duel, you know, or sorry, a Novig, it looks very similar to what I'm used to, which is really exciting because you know it was. It was kind of the bet that I was making when I was switching over from finance to traditional or sorry, just to sports betting, which was hey, there are these exchange popping up. You know, I think they could be really big and they could trade very similarly to what you're used to on, you know, traditional markets.
10:24 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Yeah. So with the, the, the trading aspect, and you know you're probably used to pretty much near perfect information and you move into a sports betting world where information is very messy, it can be misreported, it can be very late in the new cycle. How was that Like? Late in the new cycle. How was that Like, how did you brace for that?
10:46 - Jared Strober (Host)
essentially Because that that seems like a pretty polarizing change. Yeah, I think like, uh, my answer to this may be a little bit confusing, but my answer here is like you should find yourself some mentors who have handled this before. Um, and I was really really really lucky in the people who I was introduced to and who kind of taught me the way that sports betting works and how to handle this like both misinformation and like really good information and how to execute on that. But I don't have all the answers. I haven't been doing this long enough to have 20 years of experience on how to handle injuries. But I do have people around me who do have that kind of experience and that's really helpful Because, you know, a lot of sports betting is knowing information that others don't have and finding like alpha, and alpha comes, you know, in kind of two ways like in traditional markets is like oh, I have this feature in this model that you know adds one bit or adds, you know, five bits to the algorithm that trades 1000 times a day.
11:49
But alpha and sports betting could look a lot like hey, I'm good friends with the quarterback and, like you know, his ankle looks like it's hurting, and that's, you know, a piece of really important information, and it is not really something that you see in traditional markets as much. So find some mentors who can help break down this information and help you monetize it, and that's the kind of advice that I would have if you're processing new information.
12:13 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Yeah, I actually very strongly agree with that type of advice and it's how I approached my sports betting journey into becoming a sharp, better, rather than a square as well. I'm always fascinated with people who make the jump from one career to another. There's a lot of similarities, obviously, between what you were doing before, but I'm curious if you could give me some concrete examples of where your experience with hedge funds and that type of trading helped you in navigating the sports betting trading journey, and then the exact opposite, where your experience actually may have hurt you in the sports betting space.
12:53 - Jared Strober (Host)
Absolutely so. I think you know, help me. There's a. There's a few really good examples. The first was like when I got into options, my strategies were I looked at, you know, social media algorithmically and I used some natural language processing to analyze what people were talking about. And then I would go trade single equity options on the CBOE and I had a you know co-located box and I would essentially buy options faster and sell them to the public, people on Twitter and Robin Hood, you know, who essentially did not have any information about these equities.
13:26
Besides, you know that other people on Twitter were talking about them and to me, what that really reinforced was how important it is to have some kind of information that other people don't have or aren't looking at and how you can monetize that.
13:40
So, kind of getting back to what we're talking about, like you know how we don't have perfect information, if you have a little bit of information that others just don't have, it really changes the game for you and it's really only one piece of information that actually can make it so that you have a real sustainable edge. And that edge, you know, in markets, in traditional, like financial markets lasted for three years, and you can find similar things in sports betting that might have less of a long lifespan, but it's really interesting to see kind of how the same ideas of hey, let's go find this information, whether it's like statistical information or injury information, or more systemic, like game-wide information that's not being priced in and actually trading on that and just kind of looking for these advantages is really fun to me and definitely the way to find edges.
14:36 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Yeah, you almost have to be wired in that way. I know for you saying that it's really fun to you that sounds like someone else's nightmare. But I'm kind of in the same boat as you, Jared. I welcome those types of challenges. I've talked to Flup about this before, Flup, friend of the program, Chris Dierkis, part of the Hammer Betting Network, and he told me in finance you really really care about the best execution possible. What does the best execution look like in the sports betting world when prices are different all over the place, limits are different all over the place? How do you best execute in the sports betting world?
15:18 - Jared Strober (Host)
Yeah, completely agree that in traditional finance what we think about is like making the best trade possible. It's like you know, how can we approach this problem? Um, and essentially you know, not lose, and I think you know, in sports you have to be okay learning, uh, and gaining information in lots of different ways, whether that's, like you know, losing a little bit of money to find out. You know, maybe after you click into a book then the line moves six points and that's a really important piece of information to learn. But having the best execution is less important than learning and getting all the information that you can before you make your final play. So if you click around a little bit in the market and you see how the market reacts and kind of what books do, I would say that's a more appropriate approach than you know, really honing in on like the one price and making sure that, like you're just going to hammer this one price.
16:14 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Yeah, got it. I want to explore market making as a concept here. We very rarely talk about that here on Circles Off, I think. Obviously the landscape is changing. It's changed relatively fast over the past six months a year, but there's going to be a lot of people who are tuning in here that don't know what a market maker is or how market making works. So in plain English, can you describe what a sports market maker is and how that differs from someone who's just like a traditional sports better?
16:48 - Jared Strober (Host)
Yeah. So market making is definitely a weird concept when you think about what market making is. It's somebody who wants to make it so that a counterparty or like a normal person can buy both sides. So let's just say, let's just say you know, bears, vikings, tonight we need one person to take the bears and one person to take the Vikings, and you're going to facilitate that transaction by giving them, you know both odds for those prices or both odds for those sides. So I don't know odds off the top of my head, but let's just use one minus one, 10 minus one, 10 for the simplest answer. So a market maker is going to quote minus 110 bears, minus 110 Vikings and allow both you know a Bears fan and a Vikings fan to buy their you know respective sides. So it's making a market, like you know.
17:37
In this case it's. The market is Moneyline Vikings, bears and market making is just the process of actually, you know, creating that market. So you know, for sports it's not just money line, it's also spreads and totals and props and a ton of other things and you have to kind of spread these out over or spread your liquidity, you know, your bankroll out over all of these bets to allow anybody who wants to come and trade against you. You know, do that at any time of day, really, or, you know, at some uptime. So market making is allowing customers to come to an exchange and facilitate a trade.
18:17 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
All right Now. How deep are you into it now in terms of the breadth of options that you mentioned there? Right, you have money lines, sides, totals, props. Are you navigating all of that at this point? Are you primarily focused on certain things? Does it depend on the sport? I'm just curious how deep into the weeds you are right now.
18:35 - Jared Strober (Host)
So I am deep into the weeds. We do almost everything and it makes for a very interesting problem. I think that what I'm used to is the sides and totals and the main lines, but we are we are working to to cover all markets, not just, you know, sides and totals Interesting.
18:53 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Are you setting your own prices on everything or are you accepting prices from others as well? So I assume you know I think for exchange it's a little tough right, because oftentimes I'm not the first one to the punch when a new market's posted.
19:02 - Jared Strober (Host)
you know, I think for exchanges it's a little tough, right, because oftentimes I'm not the first one to the punch. When a new market's posted, you know, other people might post before me. So then, am I looking at what they're doing? Yeah, like, certainly anyone who's a market maker should be looking at what other people in the market are doing. It's a little hard to just go at it yourself, right? But I am certainly looking at what every other book is doing and whatever other exchange is doing, and what are the other market makers you know in the current order book are doing as well.
19:31 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
I'm fine with you giving me like ballpark ranges for the next thing if you're comfortable, if you're comfortable doing that. But when you post a price in a market, how tight do you try to get with that price and how often do you actually get filled at the prices that you're posting?
19:50 - Jared Strober (Host)
Yeah, I think that's a good question. So you know it depends, like, for player props it's very different than how tight you can get on sides. You know sides like they're pretty efficient. What sports you know has done. That's really cool, is that? Like, even though there's a fractured market, you know you can kind of before post understand what the prices should look like, whereas you know for player props there's, you know, less of a full conjoined market, which makes it more interesting and also means that you have to be a little bit wider because the information is not totally solved at that point. So you know, for sides you can get filled really quickly and you know it's never a problem at pretty much you know all the prices that you want to get filled up. For props it's a little bit more difficult.
20:36 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Now how much does this process vary depending on the sport and, in particular, the timing of the event? So I, like I, have to imagine that there are significant differences in market making. Let's say, nfl half an hour before post versus a tennis match that's maybe five days out, right, how drastically different are those processes?
21:04 - Jared Strober (Host)
Um, quite different and, uh, you know, they actually have a lot of similarities to traditional markets and options specifically. So, when you look at an option, there's what's called Greeks, which are kind of the input factors which make up the price of the option. So there's like delta and gamma and theta and all these other, uh, mathematical terms which help us price a traditional option, and a lot of the same, you know, ways of thinking can be applied to sports betting, uh, which are you know how? You know, what should your liquidity look like five minutes before the game? What should it look like 50 minutes before the game? What should it look like five days before the game? Um, and you can kind of factor in both the pricing and the liquidity based on these kind of Greeks or mathematical terms. And so what we do is we take a lot of these traditional market ideas and apply them to quoting in sports betting markets.
22:04 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Right, yes, Interesting. I had to process that for a bit, but that makes some sense. On the data side, which we talked about right off the top and you brought it up yourself In finance your data is extremely clean that you're working with In sports betting. I can say this from experience it is very messy, there's lots of headaches, there's inconsistencies. There's really a lot of work that goes into that. What are some of the biggest headaches that you face nowadays in terms of the quality of data in sports?
22:38 - Jared Strober (Host)
Yeah. So the first thing that I got very frustrated in sports was, uh, symbology. So what, what does symbology mean? It's like in in traditional markets it's symbols, and, uh, people way smarter than myself have spent years figuring out what symbols should look like for equities and options, um and so. For equities, there's like a real structure. It's really easy to parse. You can like look at the numbers and the letters and understand that this is a Tesla, you know option expiring next week for you know $300 or whatever.
23:13
And in sports, no one has gone through really and defined this symbology across all exchanges, across, you know, all sports books, which makes, you know that problem in itself incredibly challenging and annoying to solve.
23:26
So you know you have to spend a lot of time doing text matching and saying, oh okay, well, if it's home away, you know date and sport, you know that's what we'll do.
23:35
But then you get props and so you know just, there is a really important data problem that needs to be solved before you can even do any analysis about the game or about, you know, markets within the game.
23:48
And I think this, you know, can be really extrapolated when you think about all right, can you use college football data in NFL? Or, like you know, do those two have to be separate? Do even you know the same sport? Can you look at two different players in the same position and say, hey, these are the tendencies and try to make some judgments on that? And this is kind of a personal choice or like a modeling choice that everyone has to make and approach at some point. And it makes the problem of sports way more interesting than traditional markets Because you know, in traditional markets you kind of approach the problem the same way. You know everyone looks at market data and you know you build these kind of EMAs or you build these, you know features based on book pressure. But with sports, you know whether you use the same simulation for college football as you do for NFL is kind of an up to you decision.
24:42 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Yeah, and, and I would just add to that, you you do have to. I mean, I mean sports betting, I think, over a long sample, you know you're kind of stripping out luck, but in a sense, with some, with some smaller decisions, you are gambling on certain things, like weather is one, for that I've I've been dealing with for years with sports, where there's hundreds of different weather sources. Um, lots of times they don't line up. In particular, you have to back test which has been more accurate over time. But, like, certain things like that are constantly giving me headaches and I'm wondering, in terms of automation for you, is your process at this point like 100% automated or there's still manual fallbacks? How do you navigate all that where?
25:27
again we're just living in this like imperfect world of data, where you know a site might change their labeling one day and you know you're pulling from a certain API and it just breaks Things like that, like how much is manual versus actually automated?
25:42 - Jared Strober (Host)
Yeah Well, I think you know one day I would love to live in a perfectly automated world where I can think you know one day I would love to live in a perfectly automated world where I can watch. You know all my AI agents do do the work for me, and you know text in the city. I spend a lot of time at Signal and Telegram, but maybe I can have an agent you know text in Signal and Telegram for me. I think some people would be less happy with that than others, but right now, you know, a lot of the process is unfortunately still manual and you know we try to automate things where we can, and I think that you know the hedge fund and finance world as a whole is kind of going as automated as possible, if it's not already there. But for me, you know, I want to bring that to sports. So, you know, for Powerplay Sports, we are trying to automate everything, whether that's submitting orders to exchanges or spending as little time in signal chats as possible.
26:32 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Walk me through how you act when the data set is incomplete. So injuries would be something weather for sure. Yeah, someone who might be like a true questionable 50-50. Do you opt to like not make a market for those? Do you take educated guesses? What do you do in those types of scenarios?
26:53 - Jared Strober (Host)
Yeah, this.
26:54
This gets back to like the phone, a friend example, where it's like you know you need people in your circle who you can ask about this and who you can, you know, help, uh, to find out those answers.
27:04
So maybe you have information and you're willing to like share information in exchange for that. You know questionable, you know injury or things like that. But finding, you know, people who have this information that you don't is really important and like, what can you give them to make it worth their time to work with you is a really, really important question and it's one that, like you know, I kind of found early which is like, hey, I can, you know, bring in a lot of these traditional finance ideas and apply them to sports, and you know that might help some people out and in exchange they might be willing to give me injury information, and that's kind of how I've solved it. But there are lots of ways to solve it. You know people are always willing to sell you things and you know one of the best things about BetStamp is talking to Johnny and you know he is able to sell you anything.
27:54 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
That's one of the best things. I would say that's one of the worst things for me, Jerry.
27:57 - Jared Strober (Host)
He's willing to sell you anything? So if there's, ever a data problem. I go directly to Johnny and I say, hey, can you solve this data problem for you know some amount of money.
28:05 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Yeah, he is. He is very good at collecting that data, that's for sure. I'm going to sound like a total noob here. I don't really care. I'm very fascinated in this stuff. I'm experienced in sports betting, but I'm not super experienced when it comes to market making. A lot of these prediction markets and exchanges are US based. It's very hard for Canadians to access, so I know, in traditional sportsbooks, profiling is a huge thing, right, every single piece of data, or every single bet, is a piece of data that a sportsbook trader can use to profile someone's account. So X might be good in college football, winning better over a long period of time, but they might stink at everything else. Their college football bets might move the market. Everything else might not. In your area of expertise, jared in terms of market making here, how much of what you do is shaped by what other people are betting into market, are privy to. You know every single order on on an exchange or things like that that actually make you, um, adjust your, your opinion on a game yeah.
29:14 - Jared Strober (Host)
So you know, I think the overarching idea here is like adverse selection, like conditional on you know somebody else trading against me. Uh, do I have more information than they do, or are they? You know a really informed player who I should pay attention to and I think like the most interesting. I saw a really good TikTok or Instagram about this yesterday actually, and it was about Taylor Swift and Travis Kelsey getting married and it was, you know, will they get engaged or get married this year?
29:41
And somebody the day before started buying you know a lot of this contract on you know one of the prediction markets and that market maker should have been, you know, really, really concerned about the person who's really purchasing a lot of you know Travis Kelsey, taylor Swift engagement contracts. And so I would say, regardless of what you're trading, you really need to be attentive to what your you know counterparty is doing and who's purchasing it. And even though you know exchanges don't really give you counterparty information, you know you can kind of pick up on things, whether it's a retail order or whether it's an institutional order or whether you know it doesn't look right. You know, if the contract traded for 20 cents, you know for the last six months. Why should it all of a sudden trade at 30 cents now? And if you're going to take a contrarian view, you better be really confident that they are going to get married. And in that case the market maker should respond to that and start drifting the price higher or change the order book.
30:39 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Right, I guess in a similar vein. You know. One thing I particularly notice when I'm paying attention to prediction markets exchanges is the widening and tightening of prices, even some days for listen, I'm a hockey better. I I'd regularly monitor exchange prices on hockey. I noticed the spread on some games was insanely low at times where you could bet like minus one oh three aside, minus one oh two aside, whereas there'd be other games where it's a like minus 103 aside, minus 102 aside, whereas there'd be other games where it's a standard minus 110. How do you go about widening and tightening those prices?
31:13 - Jared Strober (Host)
yeah. So a lot of that also has to do with you know, confidence. How confident are you in you know quoting your prices and also, like, conditional on somebody filling you? Like, is your trade worse than it was before? Like, are you happy with the fill that you got if somebody else comes and and trades against you? So you know you are a super sharp hockey. Better, I have no doubt that I should be really sad if you come and and click my price on any of the exchanges. But somebody who you know lives in a really warm place and doesn't really watch a lot of hockey, I should probably be, you know, pretty happy about their, their hockey trades. You know, to me what does that show? It shows that they're like retail and less informed than than than you might be. And so you know, moving the, the, the prices and the actual spread is kind of a function on how confident and and how much information you have on a given game.
32:02 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
So it's very much mirrors what a traditional sports book would do like a sharper sports book profile.
32:07 - Jared Strober (Host)
Right and I think like, at the end of the day, what market makers are trying to be are, you know, successful sports books, which is kind of like an interesting idea. You know it's not just trading on you know circa, or not just trading on you know another large casino sports book. What it is is trying to apply your prices and your way of thinking to all exchanges. So it's like a William Hill where you're the backend to a bunch of different casinos.
32:33 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Are there any instances that you can recall where you are significantly off market relative to those sharper books, like a Circa Chris Pinnnacle, even a bet online for for some sports? Do you recall any instances where you know your, your number that you're posting is is quite a quite a ways off?
32:54 - Jared Strober (Host)
yeah, there was an interesting game this last weekend with, uh, charlotte and unc. Um, we, uh, you know, had a charlotte number or, sorry, a unc number that was just far off from you know, had a Charlotte number or, sorry, a UNC number that was just far off from you know what other people were, you know, were quoting, and we ended up being right, and it was this last weekend, but it was an interesting kind of idea for us because, you know, is that CLV or is that just better modeling on our part? Like, what did the model tell us that caused us to be so off from from what everyone else is doing? And I think understanding exactly like what the processes are and how you arrive there, is really, really important.
33:36 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
So when something like that happens, what are you personally going through in a situation like that? Cause I would imagine if you are off market, you're going to take more action on that game, generally speaking. So I mean, just if I put myself in that position, I'm probably pretty stressed and I'm like I don't know, like could be right, could be like you have safeguards in place for stuff like that. Um, how do you approach that type of situation as a whole?
34:04 - Jared Strober (Host)
Yeah, I tend to think that I'm, like, almost always wrong, which may be a good way of thinking, but it's also, you know, might be a bad way of thinking. So I think, you know, first thing is, let's go over this model again, like, hey, is there something we missed there? Did we do a improper like player rating, or, you know, is there some fucked up and you know, or is there some messed up? And so for me, I think I'm wrong. And then, you know, my goal is to investigate until the point that I, like, am very happy with the conclusion that I made. And you know, figuring out that kind of oh, are you right and are you wrong? Is really, really interesting, and it's part of the whole trading game and it's, you know, kind of being a investigative analyst. And so building the models is always fun, but exploring whether I'm right or I'm wrong in this situation is also, you know, part of the game, and one that I really enjoy.
34:57 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Right. So a lot of bettors would say that you know winning is and this is going to sound incredibly conceited but winning is not that challenging, it's scaling and really preventing yourself, like using proper bankroll management to prevent yourself from going bust, right? You hear so many stories of bettors who've been very successful for a long period of time and then they just go bust because they had too much involved over the course of one college football Saturday and you know it was the perfect storm and they lost everything, right. I'm curious what kind of safeguards you have in place for stuff like this, like do you have an automatic pause on a specific day where everything gets pulled If, like almost like a stop loss gets triggered? How do you approach these types of things?
35:48 - Jared Strober (Host)
Yeah, well, I think, going back to like the winning piece of that question, I actually think that winning is really hard. Okay, I think, in general, like sports similar to traditional financial markets, and what I've realized is, like you know, everything that you do is is really hard, and being successful in whether it's sports betting or traditional markets or, you know, business in general, is just challenging. And so for me, it's not just a question of, like scaling or, you know, liquidity or bankroll management. It's a question of like finding these sustainable edges and making them work. And you know that process is not easy and it's not just me who does it. Like I am very fortunate to have a team of people who who work with me.
36:28
And then you know, on that bankroll piece, it's it's really being okay with losing and understanding that, like variance is a is a part of the job, and handling the variance is is probably the most important skill for any sports, better whether it's you know. You know knowing ball is great, but if you can't handle the days where there's nine fumbles and a missed field goal, then things are going to be really tough for you. And so I think you know, for me it's more than just you know, handling my bankroll and understanding our liquidity provisions. It's also about like, hey, when, when things are going really badly, how can you still show up to work the next day and smile about it and enjoy the job?
37:10 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Okay. So I'm going to push back a little bit here because I agree in principle, right, and I don't want to be disrespectful at all You're much younger than I, am right, I'm in my late 30s. I know certainly you're younger. Younger than I am right, I'm in my late thirties. I know certainly you're younger than me, and I think every sports better tries to tell themselves that beforehand, right.
37:34
Like yeah, volatility is part of the game. You're going to have your ups, your downs, but you know, you just kind of you got to get volume, but inevitably you're going to have some downs that are downs, and in your line of work you don't really you don't really have like a North star necessarily, like CLV or something where you could be like you know what. Yeah, it's been a rough period, but kind of getting unlucky, I'm going to power, so. So how do you put like I'm sure you've gone through something like that, where it's been a prolonged losing stretch and you're like you know how? How do you approach that? How can you actually know for certain that it's going to turn around for you?
38:20 - Jared Strober (Host)
Right. Well, I guess you never know for certain that it's going to turn around. I think the biggest thing for us, right, is putting in as many reps as possible, and obviously you have really terrible losing streaks. But it's like, let's just say that I was, you know, in a really bad period. I'd go look at the past fares that I had and I'd say, like you know what's the key value, that this is a reasonable occurrence. Like you know, let's just say that all of my, what my work is, is good, and you know what's the chance that we experience a run that's actually this bad.
38:53
And so I guess my process on handling these and actually figuring this out is just doing a ton of math and statistics to solve the problem, which is, you know, is this actually variance or is this real edge? And you have to be okay with both answers. You know, is this actually variance or is this real edge? And you have to be okay with both answers. You know, one of them is like, yes, this is variance, and the other is, hey, actually you don't have real edge, and this is a really improbable situation which you know, means that your model is wrong and moving on, and you know, admitting your model is bad is part of the process as well.
39:24 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
By the way, for anyone wondering what age had to do with any of that, it's just that I know for certain I've been through more of those prolonged spells in my lifetime and I think the more that they happen, the easier it is to get through. I view it very similarly. Jared in the crypto space right, yeah, you know, I was trading like Bitcoin when it was 1200 bucks and I've been through catastrophic losses in one day, and now I see how other people react to that. Whenever you know, bitcoin, ethereum, dropped 10, 20 percent in a day. It's like the sky is falling. But I've lived through that at this point and I kind of just know it's going to be OK. So that that was the only reason I brought age into the mix. It's just more like I've experienced a lot of them, whereas I would venture a guess you haven't experienced a ton of those prolonged stretches. But I didn't want to again be disrespectful in any way.
40:17 - Jared Strober (Host)
No, no, no, that's absolutely true, and I think you know. This is why you know. Finding others who can explain this to you is very helpful, Because stats only shows one piece of the picture and it may lie, and so knowing that whatever you're doing is correct and that this is not an anomaly and other people have seen this before is helpful, Right.
40:42 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
You mentioned adverse selection earlier. Some people may not be familiar with that term. You can explain it a little bit more to to more of the casual rec audience. But what do you do in a scenario where someone is clearly willing to spend a lot of dollars on the opposite side of you? How do you approach those types of situations?
41:07 - Jared Strober (Host)
approach those types of situations. Yeah well, I think you know you have to first stop and reevaluate. So you know, this is where having a manual trader and having a, you know, semi automated process is really helpful, because oftentimes what these bots will do and you'll see this is if you're really right about something, they'll post liquidity and then continue to post liquidity and they won't shift their prices. And this is one way that you can really abuse the prediction market system where you know, unlike sportsbooks, which might shift their prices after you bet, there are players in prediction markets who just won't move their prices. And it's really, really interesting to go and watch that process happen where, let's just put, let's say, they post $10,000 at minus 110, you click for the full size and then they post again at minus 110.
41:51
And you know understanding that after the first click, you know maybe you shouldn't change your price, but after the second click or the third click or the fourth click, they better have information that is much better than yours or you, you know, might have information that's worth a whole lot of money. And there are times when I've seen this happen and we've been on the right side of these trades. But there have also been times when we are just wrong and you know it's really unfortunate. But you know, you have to know if you are being adversely selected because they, you know, are re quoting because they have more information, or that you are, you know, are re-quoting because they have more information, or that you are you know, adversely selecting them.
42:27 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Yeah, Uh, I want to talk a lot about the landscape. Um, nowadays, I I find this really interesting. Uh actually argued a little bit with with Kirk Evans on circle back on Monday, uh, about the direction going forwards, uh, traditional sports books versus, uh prediction markets, um, how that market share will shape up over the course of the next five, 10 years, things of that nature. From your perspective, though. Let's go start from a trading perspective. What's working really well in the industry for traders nowadays in 2025?, and what's something that feels very broken or potentially unfair for you at this point?
43:07 - Jared Strober (Host)
Yeah Well, apis are really great for traders.
43:11
Or, specifically, like a garage market maker, or even a garage trader Like you, should be able to go use cloud code and make a pretty decent bot that runs on Calchi or, you know, another one of these prediction markets which probably, you know, is going to change the game in ways that we don't even know, and so what I think is working really well is like the algorithmic access and the use of these AI tools to trade sports.
43:36
And I, you know, yes, sports books are oftentimes really easy to place large bets at, and, you know, actually digging in and doing the quantitative research on sports betting exchanges is certainly not easy, but it may be more fulfilling and it also may, you know, yield higher profits than than just going and attacking Circa or, um, you know, another large sports book. I think, you know, spending your time in signal chats is really great and like that's how I've seen a lot of really successful, um, you know, sports traders find their liquidity, but I certainly don't think that's the only way, and I think that there's a lot of really great traders out there who really have never spent time in signal chats and exclusively are taking the exchange route.
44:18 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
How do you go about finding those signal chats?
44:21 - Jared Strober (Host)
Jared, you got to go to as many events as possible in the sports betting space and I think that's one of the reasons why I love sports betting and prediction markets more than traditional finance at this point. Oftentimes like you won't find that many people interested in talking about like 30 Delta options, but you find a lot of you know people interested in talking about tonight's NFL game and oftentimes those people have outs and can help you find liquidity. That is really important to being successful in sports.
44:55 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Prediction markets, like our sponsor, calshe, and exchanges. They're kind of having a moment right now. You've seen a lot of talk. I mean it's just it's more and more of the norm every single day. How do you think that's going to evolve in the next, let's say, 12 to 24 months, one to two years? Do you think it's full steam ahead where you know prediction markets will really really close the gap with traditional sports books, or do you think that this is something where you know we might see it peak pretty soon? Curious what your thoughts are on that, that landscape.
45:30 - Jared Strober (Host)
I think they're here to stay. I'm obviously not a lawyer, and so I am not the best person to talk to about the political landscape of things, but I've seen a lot of really great things happen in prediction markets that I'm just incredibly excited about, especially over the next 12 to 24 months. So I certainly think they're here to stay for the time being, and if they leave, that's just another constraint that I have to work in. But it doesn't mean that sports betting as a whole, or even exchange-based trading, is going to go away. There's a lot of great exchanges abroad that people have been really, really successful on, and having access here to those exchanges would be unbelievable and fantastic, but for the time being, I think exchanges are where it's at.
46:15 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
How might a prediction market sit next to a traditional sports book on, let's say, an NFL Sunday in a year, year's time? Right, I think a lot of the big argument is that traditional sports books are always going to have a certain advantage with the bet types that they can offer relative to a prediction market. I've heard people say that you know, prediction markets are just never going to adopt the recreational slash casual audience. It's just a bunch of sharps that are going to be betting against each other. Do you do you agree with those assessments or do you think that at some point you could get more recs betting into a traditional prediction market?
46:53 - Jared Strober (Host)
Yeah, I think I hope that what we arrive at is more RECs betting into exchanges, and I think that we will see that. I think there's a lot of people on Robinhood who, you know, don't know a lot about options, that are definitely betting into options in crypto, and I don't see a reason why, you know, exchanges couldn't take that same form, which I'm, you know, incredibly excited about, because I don't think that sports books are necessarily like the end all be all for recreational traders. You know you can get better pricing and, unfortunately, there might be fees, but it doesn't mean that, you know, the experience needs to be any worse. It doesn't mean that the experience needs to be any worse.
47:31 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
One of the biggest changes for sportsbooks over, let's say, the last five years. Obviously, the emergence of the same game parlay has been big, but also the increase in live betting handle just exponential. I would say even the last 10 years, where lots of sportsbooks are now quoting more handle live than pregame. Lots of sports books are now quoting more handle live than pregame. What is the depth of live betting look like right now in prediction markets and exchanges and are you dabbling in in market making in live markets right now?
48:03 - Jared Strober (Host)
Yeah, there has been so much on Twitter recently about, you know, live betting on prediction markets, especially on Cal, which is really exciting. Um, I would love so. There's something called a speed bump, uh, in european exchanges and they haven't really appeared here in us exchanges. It's essentially, like you know, live delays on these, on these betting platforms, um, and I think you know it's something we might see here. But if not, the live landscape is just insane in terms of liquidity and inefficiencies, and I think there's going to be huge growth there on both the market making front and the betting front. So I actually see that exchanges could be the place for retail traders to go to bet on this stuff live.
48:48 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Yeah, I'm going to say something here that might piss some people off, but I live in the real world, where stuff like court siding does exist nowadays. For those that don't know, it's people that are at the games on a call whatever. They're figuring out a way to bet before the sports book is able to pull the number or move the number. They're basically taking advantage of information that hasn't been processed yet. Is that a legitimate fear for you when you are market making, live on an exchange or prediction market?
49:21 - Jared Strober (Host)
Of course, and that's what speed bumps really try to combat. But I think, at the end of the day, the job of a market maker and the same as this is in a traditional financial institution is to keep their prices up and to make sure the market is efficient. And so if you post a price, you know it might be unfortunate if you're not pulling them in time, but it's kind of their fault for not, you know, making sure that the prices are correct.
49:57 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
So you know, I hope that court sighting is here to stay for the retail traders and for sharp bettors, because it's a great experience, you know, sitting at a mets game and clicking on calci, um, and I certainly encourage everyone to go and try it. Uh, paint a sunday for me. Uh, three years from now, let's say I think yeah what?
50:07
what looks different for live betting? Um, let's say, for same game parlays on exchanges. How do you see the evolution of the prediction market exchange product? I mean, already I've seen CalShe start to change their UI to make it look more similar to a traditional sportsbook product. I think that's a very smart move to attract a more recreational, better. What else do you think we'll see down the road?
50:35 - Jared Strober (Host)
Yeah, I think I hope that the UI is more recreationally friendly, but you know it still has the same feel as a traditional financial asset. So you know the order book is deep and the tick size is smaller than it currently is and that you are able to bet like you are on a stock with the liquidity you know that is going to satisfy you, regardless of if you're an institutional player or if you're a recreational player. And I definitely see a world where that happens and I hope that the liquidity is there for SGPs. And you know all different kinds of alt betting that you know we currently see pretty much confined to the sports books, and I certainly see a world where that could be on exchanges as well.
51:23 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
I know you mentioned earlier you're not a lawyer. I'm not going to ask you the question as if you're a lawyer, but obviously are a lot of. There's a lot of talk about the regulatory landscape surrounding prediction markets right now. How much time do you spend focused on that regulatory landscape? Like, obviously, it's in your best interest for this to continue on? Do you consider lobbying, you know, putting any sort of money into campaigns to keep this going? I'm just because, like, obviously any change in the regulatory landscape now it will deeply impact your profession one way or another. So, aside from just like the market making and actually trying to make money, how much emphasis do you put on keeping up with what's going on and trying to push the prediction markets forward?
52:15 - Jared Strober (Host)
I, um, I do not do anything. Uh, aside from tout that, we should stick with American odds, as a you know proud Patriot that uh believes in I actually believe they're called North American odds.
52:28 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
I could be wrong, jared, but we do use them in Canada, even though, well, that's not. Some people do use decimal. But yeah, I can get the decimal odds out of my face, that's for sure.
52:38 - Jared Strober (Host)
I'm big on this. Right. You get the decimal odds out of my face and also the probabilities they have to go as well. So North American odds. I hope they're here to stay and I hope that you know I haven't figured out how to use them quite right on prediction markets, but you know that's certainly something that I hope to see in the next 12 months, maybe a sooner change than that.
53:01 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Yeah, we've also seen these prediction markets, obviously CalSheet. Other prediction markets are doing integrations with traditional brokerages, robinhood obviously being the big one right now. Have you noticed an influx in retail flow from these types of things and do you encourage more of that going forward?
53:22 - Jared Strober (Host)
I encourage everyone to be buying event contracts, whether that is sports or other kinds of bets. I think that event contracts are really, really cool and I'm not, you know, an expert in the political betting space or you know, even you know in sports, but I do think that event contracts are really, really cool and something that everyone should spend some time looking into.
53:46 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Yeah, I probably should spend some more time looking into event contracts myself. Not going to lie to you, I've learned something from you here today, jared. On an advice front, I do. Whenever we get someone on here who's doing this. As a profession, I do like to give back to the community in the form of advice. Let's start with, like a more casual better who's potentially watching this. What's one thing that a casual better should stop doing today and what's one thing that they should start doing today?
54:18 - Jared Strober (Host)
Yeah, I think, um, both my my start and stop suggestion is on the uh, before you place a trade, just like, take a second and uh, consider a hypothesis, like Like I would assume, or I would hope, that most of the retail bettors are not trying to lose money.
54:37
And so you know, for me what does that actually look like? If I was going to bet on something, I would say, hey, I think that X, y and Z is going to happen here are the reasons why I think it's going to happen and then place the trade instead of just like seeing a team a score you know score point and then uh, place a bet on team a because you know, oftentimes you'll see that the favorites are ahead or you know, sorry, the the underdogs are ahead, and then the favorites will come back. And did you just place that trade because you know the the underdog switched to, or, sorry, the favorite switch to minus odds, or did you actually have a thesis and a hypothesis on that trade? And I think that's like a really simple thing that a lot of people do for stocks and it's not carried over to sports yet.
55:18 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Yes, I really agree with that advice and I like it. The only caution I would give is to to make sure that the thesis is rooted in like real analysis and reality, not, you know, my three buddies like the other side of this game, so I'm gonna, you know, I think some people can get carried away with focusing on things that maybe just don't matter.
55:44 - Jared Strober (Host)
Right? Well, if your three buddies like the like the game, maybe you should just think if they're a smart group of people, or if that's, you know, the group that you don't trust, and then you know. I'm even OK with that hypothesis for the time being.
55:56 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
I don't want to promote illegal bookmaking or anything like that, but if I had three buddies who like the game and I was looking to fade them, I might try to just get them a better price so that I can also get a better price.
56:07
That just might be a scenario. You know, in the theoretical, hypothetical world that I might go with Um if you were able to to, if you had one class to teach future sports quants that are in the space. What's the title of the class? What is the key takeaway that you want them to have in that class?
56:29 - Jared Strober (Host)
Yeah, I need to think about the title, but hopefully it'd be like an introductory to sports market making.
56:37 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
I don't know about that. I'm sure ChatGPT could give you some better titles than that.
56:42 - Jared Strober (Host)
We could do some better titles. I think the biggest thing is, if you're expecting something to happen 70% of the time, it better actually happen 70% of the time. Right, and that's a take that, like, most people kind of ignore, I think. Um, but making sure that, like, whatever statistical beliefs that you have, uh, if you're going to model something, they better actually occur that frequently. Um, otherwise you know your model is not calibrated and you know what you're doing is kind of uh, garbage in some sense. Uh, because at the end of the day, like, if you're going to make a prediction and it's not coming true, your model is going to lose.
57:17 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Um, some people are tired of this question. I don't care, uh, cause I find it fascinating personally. I think there's very different perspectives on this, depending on who you ask. And this is um surrounding closing line value. I actually watched Barry Horse do a video a couple weeks back. Well, I don't know if it was a video or as much as it was a tweet thread. I think it was a tweet thread where he's very much dismissive of the closing line in Major League Baseball as it stands right now and he's winning when he is not getting good closing line value. You talk to other people in the space and that's the be-all and end-all. There's just one metric. They're aiming for it. It's did I beat the close and can I just do that over a you know a large volume of bets? Where do you stand on the closing line value debate?
58:03 - Jared Strober (Host)
I think it's a super interesting way to like mark your trades to market. I don't think it's the end all be all. You know, week one we had really good numbers and I think we did okay, and week two, we had mid, very mid numbers and we did much better. And that's for college football, and I think that you know for me, one day I will spend the time and I will find a definitive answer for myself, which essentially, you know, decides if a CLV is important for our strategies or not. It's not something that I've done yet, but, um, it is. It is a really interesting question.
58:41 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
All right, we, um, we like to end with something pretty fun. I'm going to go back to this cause. I really liked the segment and we were doing it last time that I was doing the interviews, about six months ago. But could be anything here, could be a product, could be life advice, whatever you want. It's open to interpretation, the question, but I want you to give me two things One thing that you think is plus EV in life and one thing that you think is minus EV in life is minus EV in life.
59:12 - Jared Strober (Host)
Plus EV in life is, you know, continue to do either sports betting or whatever you're going to bet on if you enjoy it, and the minute you don't enjoy it, just take a break. Because I think I've seen a lot of people who kind of grudge through things and are not enjoying whether it's sports betting or, you know, traditional finance, and even though they have alpha or like, are on the cusp of finding things, they kind of give up or are not motivated to continue, whereas if you, you know, just take a break, I think that you'll find a lot of success.
59:51
Minus EV take a break, I think that you'll find a lot of success. Minus EV. Minus EV is make sure that, regardless of the variant swings, you find strategies that are going to keep you through them, because you're going to have a lot of really bad variance swings. So not having those strategies, I think is really minus EV.
01:00:16 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
All right, and when you like, specifically what for you? For you, what's a strategy that you?
01:00:18 - Jared Strober (Host)
would use to get you through something like that. I work out a whole lot more when I'm losing than when I'm winning.
01:00:23 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Yep, and for me, I'll share for myself, but I, I use music as an outlet for me, whether that's just putting on a pair of noise noise canceling headphones and sitting in the dark and listening to music, or actually just playing the guitar or something like that, but I, uh, I find that as a good outlet to like, just come back down to earth a little bit, and I I find that to be really valuable. Um, jared, it was great chatting with you today. For those who are, you know, just hearing you for the first time, is there a Twitter account, an ex account, you want to share?
01:00:55 - Jared Strober (Host)
Where could people get more of Jared Strober? My Twitter, Jay Strobes, or I have an Instagram, JaredBetsOnSports, which is just me posting funny content.
01:01:03 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Yes, you know what? Let me ask you really quickly about that, because there's always mixed reviews. I've done some TikToks and Instagrams before I get like the snarky oh, here we go, like leaning into the viral content or whatever. Honestly, I don't even really think about it. I just like to have fun every now and then and I like might as well turn on a camera. What was the motivation for you?
01:01:23 - Jared Strober (Host)
with Jared Betts on sports, yeah, it turns out that it's really fun to just like post a daily video, or I really enjoy it at least. And so, um, you know, I uh don't. I use TikTok a lot and I've never made TikToks before. And so, one day this summer I decided to get a camera and start making videos. And, uh, you know, I I do it, I try to do it once a day. I'm not always the best at it, but, um, yeah, I I highly recommend for those who are not making content right now to go and try to create some short form content.
01:01:52 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Yeah, I think for me it's it's very different. I run a sports media, compass betting media company, so like, obviously I'm going to produce content as much as I can. It enhances the value of the business. I think whenever somebody else in the space does it, it's just like generally met with this negativity from the community. It's like, oh, like what's happening now? What are they gearing up for? You know, are they going to, are they going to sell picks and doing this and that? And listen, there's been people who definitely have gone down that Avenue. I don't want to say it doesn't happen, but I think a lumping everyone into that um, you know it's can kind of be unfair.
01:02:25 - Jared Strober (Host)
I'm definitely not selling picks, uh, and I do not plan to sell pics, but I do want to continue to post my short form content and I, uh, am hopefully going to have a funnier videos and, um, you know, give people a laugh.
01:02:39 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
All right, we'll link to that down in the description below. We'll also link Jared's Twitter account as well. If you did enjoy the interview today on circles off, please smash that thumbs up button, that like button. It goes a long way. Tells YouTube to serve this out to other people. If you can leave us a comment, that would be great as well, and if you're not subbed here yet, we're pushing 20K subs, so please click that subscribe button. It goes a long way to helping us out. We'll be back for some more content here on Circles Off. Peace out everyone.
