Things Got UGLY At Bet Bash 2025 (What Went Wrong) | Presented by Kalshi

00:00 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
coming up in today's episode of circle back nothing says funny like your friend losing 32k the anxiety of like I'm just need a drink right now and someone might come yell at me for something I said six months ago. I know I'm like a delicate flower, maybe, but that is causing me like anxiety thinking about. 

00:20 - Kirk Evans (Host)
Uh, it's funny how that works, like sportsbooks are able to keep the lights on, but 95 percent of people are winning bettors people always, always say that you know, we all get in line from Rob, like we only listen to Rob, we can't say what we want. I think there's pretty good evidence that that's not true. 

00:35 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
I think more people should call out scammers or grifters in the space. 

00:39 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
Disclaimer the content presented in this show is intended for entertainment purposes only. All opinions expressed are those of the host and do not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of any individuals or organizations mentioned. Statements made about public figures or entities are based on publicly available information and are not intended to harm or defame any person or business. This show relies on fair use of social media posts, which are presented in good faith for the purpose of commentary and criticism. Viewers and listeners are advised to form their own opinions. Circle back here on the circles off channel. It's part of the hammer bank network and presented by cal she. This is the show. We cover the latest and greatest stories from gambling twitter. We are back in our normal production studio. Been a while since I've been here Honestly been a while since these guys have been here as well. A little bit of a hiatus. I was on my year-long trip around the world, according to Joey Knish. As for Rob, he was away at Bet Bash and it was a Canadian holiday. God forbid we take a Canadian holiday out. 

01:57
But we are here. We are back in the saddle with the regular Tuesday crew. First of all, ceo of the Hammerbag Network, rob Pizzola, is here In the middle. We have avid NBA, better seasoned NBA, better Kirk Evans, and then, on the left, jeff Feinberg. Honestly, I didn't prepare an intro today. 

02:14 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
I forgot to do one. I like that, Just that's fine. 

02:18 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
But Jeff is here today. I am Jacob, I am producer and your host on Circleback. Let's just jump into it. Has everyone been? It's been quite a while. How's everyone doing any fomo from jeff or kirk for missing out on bet bash this week? 

02:33 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
oh, I thought about just the last few weeks. Now there's nothing that I'm foaming at the mouth. I'll admit there was like moments of fomo, but it was also like offset of moments like thank god, god I'm not there, and pictures speak like a thousand words, yep. So there were pictures where it was like I would really enjoy that group in that moment, at that scene. And then there are pictures like I would want to be nowhere near that scene. So that's how I feel, but I think maybe next year I will say, like a lot of people asked about you, two guys In particular. 

03:08 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
They thought Kirk was just dodging the conference because he's made so many enemies. So that was like a very common theme, kind of fair, and I think people just generally want to meet you, jeff. 

03:17 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
Now that like I feel like meeting people with like soft Not that I'm trying to like protect the show, yeah but like if I meet you we have a good time I'll admit like I'm probably not gonna like then we're buddies, not buddies, but it'd be harder to ever say anything mean about well. 

03:35 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
We saw that with rufus and fessick this week. That's a prime example which I think we're gonna get to in the show today. But it it is very different in person, like I had meetings or not meetings, but like face-to-face interactions with Chad Millman and I've been very critical of his co-host on his podcast, simon Hunter. So we chatted through that Didn't arrive at a resolution, but we chatted through that. Yanni the Greek got into my face. For those who were, we did a full episode, I think. 

04:06 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
That's an OG OG enemy. 

04:07 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Don't talk about it, be about it. And he got in my face, he saw me and he came. He's like yo, I heard you got a problem with me. Like you got a problem with me. I'm like, yeah, like I don't respect what you do and we. But by the end of the conversation it's like 10 minutes. It's like I don't really hate this guy. I don't want to. You know, it's just very different when you're in person versus, um, not there. But it would have been very entertaining to see some of kirk's interactions, some of the right angle sports guys there as well. That would have been. 

04:36 - Kirk Evans (Host)
Well, now I have the right angle sports guys uh dming me so we could talk about that. But yeah, I felt the exact same way as you like. There were some moments where where I thought I'm like that looks like a lot of fun. I wish I was there for that. And then there were some moments where I was like that would give me a lot of social anxiety. I'm not sure I want that, like the story of you, jacob, or the video of you and Zilbert coming over and saying hi to you. 

05:00 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
And you just I tried so hard to make that intro happen, jacob was like I don't, I don't want, I don't want, I don't want to see zilber and I just like I just made sure it happened. 

05:08 - Kirk Evans (Host)
It was very awkward and the story of jason uh smiling going up to fezic, which is so classic that that's how jason handled it. 

05:17 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
You know he jason came running back over to me afterwards and I was at like bet stamp had a booth there outside of the main ballroom and jason comes running over and he's like he's very visibly rattled and flustered right I'm like what the hell is going on. 

05:32
He's like I just saw fezik at garage, mahal. I'm like what happened? He's like he fucking called me your puppet and said that you're pulling all the strings and telling him what to say. He's like I got so angry and um, at that point it was probably about half an hour later. I want to say that me and knish were walking around trying to find fezik, because knish wanted to interact with him as well, but that that didn't come to fruition. That was like the one biggest disappointment, I would say was not, uh, not seeing knish and fezik interact at any point so fezik hit me up with a DM. 

06:04 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
I didn't even understand because I didn't even know of the Jacob, sorry, the Jason meeting and um I to my understanding, jason walked up to Fezzik like it was a joke or the big smile on his face you know, jason, like you could picture it happening right like he's like hey steve and then went to go shake his head. 

06:28 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
I'm like why would you do that? 

06:30 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
so if there was a way to do it, like no, smile very straight faced, like how is if jason wants to say hi to fezic? Is there a way he can do it? 

06:41 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
no, like, like, if I walk by but you, physics, I would have said nothing supposed to be awkward, like we're enemies in the parking lot like garage of a hall is where you park to come, come in. It might be like the bridge or something. 

06:51 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Yeah, like maybe so it's kind of a weird spot as well. But, um, I don't know, maybe you go up and like when I approached chad, right, I the first person that when I walked in the circle that I saw was Chad and he was just getting like a coffee at the coffee shop that's up at the top there um six dollar coffees. 

07:09 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
I know the anxiety of like I'm just need a drink right now and someone might come yell at me for something I said six months ago like I'm. I know I'm like a delicate flower, maybe, but that is causing me like anxiety thinking about. 

07:24 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
So like for me, I very much like knew that was a possibility, but in I never thought about it when I while I was there, cause you're mostly in the company of friends and you feel like protected in most, you really don't have spots where you feel vulnerable. You're talking to people, you know, you know you're, we're hanging out with a lot of the circle back crew mr peanut, better china porter like guys that nothing's really gonna happen. No one wants to confront you when you're with your group of buddies. Um, but yeah, there's. There are certainly consequences to doing this show and for me, the way that I my tweeting style and you have to work through those with people, but it it's surprisingly easier to work through them in person or at least get to a point where you're like agree to disagree. 

08:13
I think in the point with jason sorry, I think jason probably should have just went up to him and be like hey, fez, you know like if you got some time this week, let's chat rather than isn't that almost like got to, like almost have a drink in hand, maybe? 

08:27 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
Maybe that's like glad handing and maybe they're like not on those terms, but if, like I don't know If you actually want to have those words, you almost have to like come in peace. 

08:39 - Kirk Evans (Host)
Yeah, I think Jason had two options and he chose the third bad one One if you're walking by you, just straight face, give a nod, acknowledge that they're there, walk by them like you don't need to talk, but if you want to interact, you go up to them and immediately face it head on. I know we've been saying things about you Like if you want to talk about it, we can talk about it. 

09:02 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
You can't go up to him and be like buddy, buddy. 

09:06 - Kirk Evans (Host)
Like I very rarely calling him by his first name, totally right here, like if someone who I've interacted with, who I actively really don't like on twitter, came up to me laughing, pretending I'm don't talk to me like you fucking know me, you don't know me, we're not friends. Yeah, yeah, exactly, okay, they came up to me and we're like I know we've like had it out, like I want to talk about it. Okay, sure, like obviously I'll give them the time. 

09:24 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
I'm not like gonna, like want to kill someone unless I really hated them, I'd probably be like yeah, it's all good man yeah, yeah, unless it was like one of like the three one to two beefs that like actually stick out, be like. I don't know. 

09:37 - Kirk Evans (Host)
Man, it's the internet, we're good yeah, but don't pretend like you're friends before you have that acknowledgement like we're fine. 

09:44 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
There was like three of those conversations I had where I was just like people tried to come up to me, try to be all buddy buddy, and it was one of them documented, of course, but it just really pissed me off, Like to to know when, like these people who very much dislike me online or dislike who I'm associated with online, trying to be my friend in person, it like was just a severe waste of my time because I don't fucking want to talk to you. 

10:06 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
I don't like you I think it's, it's tough. Like I had one of those situations with elf right like his first interaction I've had with elf since I saw him in boston and like obviously there's been some serious beef since there. And he said like let's go to the side of legacy club and let's talk. And I'm like okay, and he tried that with some other people and they were like no fuck off. But I'm like all right. And I went over there and he was trying to speak. I said listen, I'm just going to say my piece. And I spoke to him for like 10 minutes about how, basically, how I felt through the entire situation. 

10:37
I don't appreciate when people make shit up about me. I also don't appreciate when someone gives someone else a platform just to spew nonsense about me that they know is not true, just for numbers. And I laid that all out there and I told them at the end like listen, I don't want to have beefs. I genuinely don't want to have beefs in life. So I'll squash it, but like we're not, we're not going to go back to being. You know, I'm not popping into the spaces every day and we're not going to be buddy buddy and that the spaces every day and we're not going to be buddy, buddy and that's. I think that was like a very civil interaction. Um, on a human level, we'll see I mean next time something comes up about me whether or not I'll be tweeted about, which is, uh, probably a minus 500. 

11:14
Yes, but I'll take the minus 500, yeah so but uh, that was, you know, an awkward interact. I mean, the toughest interaction I had all week was with flop. Honestly, that was like I mean, flop versus cal she was was a big thing like that that dropped. He started that tweet thread, which I guess we're gonna get into here, like 15 minutes before our live show presented by cal she at bet bash. 

11:41 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
So it was like so you're like a coach like I'm gonna I might have to take you out of the lineup. Here we talk, or you're just like say what you gotta say yeah, so um I mean let's go through the whole topic here. 

11:58 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
So that is the lead up for today's show. The reason we didn't talk about it during the live show was because it literally happened 15 minutes before the show. Like I was literally setting up for the show, round robin 42, isaac comes in and he's like, did you see what fluff tweeted? I'm like no, and then he showed me. I was like what the fuck? Like right before our live show anyways, um, the full backstory, at least part of the backstory. We can't, I don't, we don't, I don't have the full scope of it, just because the tweets have been deleted. 

12:26
But it was. Maybe, rob, you have some more information, but it was along the lines of on Calchi, after it was there was a tennis match. One of the players was walking towards the net to retire. Like very obvious, he was going to retire and therefore the other person was going to win. And Flup made a very large bet on the other player to win who was not going to retire. So he was angle shooting, he was trying to bet on, uh, what was pretty much a finalized event. And then, because cal, she doesn't void tickets, because there's always two sides of it. 

12:58 - Kirk Evans (Host)
Sorry to interrupt. I I could be totally wrong. I thought the match hadn't didn't happen, so that I thought they withdrew before I believed I I could be totally wrong. 

13:07 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
So so, for clarity, fluff is going to talk about this on friday, doesn't want to avoid it, he wants to address it head on, and we're going to give him the platform to do that because his own perspective is important. I no long. I got pretty messed up this week, um, just being in vegas, so I I I was processing things so quickly and by the time it was deleted. I actually don't know if it was pre-game or live, but the reality is the market remained open for like an hour afterwards and he just kept-. 

13:36 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
Everywhere on Cal Sheets. On Cal Sheets specifically. 

13:38 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
After the player had withdrawn, he kept continuing to hit it, and this isn't a traditional sports book where you know they just void bets afterwards. These are two-way, peer to peer. They settle at a previous price and because of where the price was settled, fluff essentially lost the equivalent of a brand new car. Thirty two thousand bucks on that. So he was in a pretty bad mood to say the least, and I guess Jacob, his initial reaction was just to take it to twitter well, I mean, I I don't think his initial reaction was that calci reps there? 

14:12 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
he could have yelled so so. 

14:14 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
So I from talking to him he had talking to a lot of representatives of calci and then, when he felt as though it wasn't going to be resolved in his favor, that's when he went to twitter to try and stir up a controversy. Yes, um, knowing he was about to do a calci presented show which was poorly timed. But uh, essentially he bet on a predated, like he had the knowledge of what the event was going to end as, and he was ankle shooting and he got caught and he lost a bit of. He lost quite a bit of money off of that. So here are some of the reactions that we have from Twitter. 

14:48
This is from Rishi Betts saying it's funny seeing the virtue signaling reactions to the fluff tennis thing, as if a single one of you wouldn't try to get a live money line bet in If you see a player walking to the net to retire and don't try to come up with arbitrary ethical difference. Next one comes from man at the badge says this seems very shady on flup's part. Dude bet a shit ton on a side that was already settled, trying to squeeze value from a closed market. Dude's lucky they didn't keep the whole fucking bag and ban his account. To be honest, shady shit. And the third one comes from andy molitor. Uh, at andy s msfw says flup, probably shouldn't have tweeted that, but the folks trying to nail him to a cross maybe should chill a bit too. So on the outside looking in, I would love your perspective on this one, kirk. How would you feel in this situation? Would you do something like this? Just give your thoughts from where you saw it. 

15:39 - Kirk Evans (Host)
Absolutely so. This whole interaction tweet was like one of the funniest things I've seen, because one a lot of people say like nothing says funny, like your friend losing 32K. 

15:54
People always say that you know we all get in line for Rob, like we only listen to Rob. We can't say what we want. I think there's pretty good evidence that that's not true. But in terms of my perspective, look, I'll shoot an angle happily. I've shot similar angles on exchanges before, and when those exchanges try to not honor my bet, I will lose my mind and freak out on them. 

16:21
So the idea that there's some moral responsibility is laughable to me. Like sports books are trying finance and exchange, I saw someone tweet that the exchange model is based on trust. Yeah, that's one of the dumbest things I've ever heard in my entire life. People are out here to make money. There's not particularly a difference of someone on an odd screen seeing lines move and trying to get a line quicker versus taking an angle like they're all we're all trying to make money. So I've absolutely no problem with flop angle shooting. 

16:52
But where he went wrong was tweeting it. No one has ever felt bad for an angle shooter losing out like he didn't. No, he never had a shot of having the public on his side here, and to me it was debatable if the rule made sense or not. I would have if that were me and I lost that money, I would have bitched to Kalshi, even if I thought I was wrong or right, because 32 grand is a lot of money and I would have wanted to try getting it back and like he had at least some semblance of an argument. But him going to twitter had the exact opposite effect. Yeah, because everyone thought he looked like he looked bad. So in turn it actually kind of made cal. She looked good and just didn't help his cause at all. But yeah, overall I did think it was quite funny. I guess it's. 

17:41 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
It's maybe not not a good look of how I am as a friend I mean as a fan of the show and of the network and they do a great job and, jacob, props to you that audio work from the live remote. I've been a part of a lot of audio, uh, live remotes before I wasn't live but five star audio credit thank you. 

18:01 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
I mean, it was basically like I said in a comment. When somebody confident it's, either I have control of everyone's microphone, which I do here, but we're in like a very poor sound treated room, or on thursdays or fridays I don't have control of everyone's mic, uh, but the rooms are sound controlled, so I don't get both, but in this occasion I had both. It was a very good room to record and I everyone's mic was in full control of myself. 

18:27 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
So not to diminish Jacob's efforts, jacob did a great job. 

18:31 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
Does Jason get? 

18:31 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
credit. This actually goes back to last year. 

18:34 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
Was he insulted that I only gave Jacob credit? 

18:36 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
and not Jason. His name hasn't been mentioned a long time, but producer Zach set up the room last year. He was contracted as part of the BetBash team to set up the podcast room, so he purchased the equipment and made the recommendations. That said, it still requires everything running smoothly, so credit to Jacob as well. 

18:54 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
So back to the Friday show. Flop's big thing, and I agree like be upset, I actually think Andy's. I agree with Andy after reading everything. 

19:03
Yeah, Flop's big thing is, though like I shoot angles, risk comes with angles yes, he said that many times like that's his whole stick to the pro betting life is if I see an opportunity, I have to accept that there's risk, and he says that with, like, getting ripped off by with runners or the old consortium of ways you guys can get ripped off, but the risk he weighs it and he shoots yep. So what are we talking about from him? What are we talking about? 

19:32 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
so this is very much what I relate to him as well. So, first and foremost, people who do want to crucify him not 99 of people who see a market open after the fact, where they know what the result is already are going to bet the sportsbook you used to consult for left up an nhl free agency market for what team a player would be on next after he signed. 

19:52 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
Yeah, smashed it all, my friends. 

19:53 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Smashed it sure, like and you know the risks that come with it. You, you know at that point that they could void your bet. Potentially they could, just they could shut your account down to zero. I mean, if it's offshore, they might not. They could fucking seize your funds. If for all like, they could do whatever the fuck they want. Basically, um, so that that risk is associated with these types of bets. 

20:16
I think where flop miscalculated was one. He's already not endeared himself to a different subsection of gambling, twitter, through the quote unquote poker scandal, which was complete bullshit. But any opportunity that they can get to dunk on him, they will, no matter what. So he kind of has to like I don't know that he can ever earn that respect back or if there's ever gonna be a situation where he's embroiled in some sort of controversy and it doesn't get like blown out of proportion. But you know that that is something that I think he completely miscalculated. Second thing is, I understand he acts on impulse, very much like I do, and I've been through, you know, situations before where I've tweeted something that I regret immediately. Sometimes you're just so angry in a situation that you don't really process it and you just you just get it out. I think you know he didn't really recognize that until maybe after the show and we chatted a little bit on it a bit more. He eventually deleted the tweets. I didn't instruct him to delete the tweets. He did this all of his own fruition but from my perspective, shot an angle. In my opinion, he might disagree. You might disagree. I think the house rules are very clear on how that would be settled. Do I think it's a good house rule? Maybe not, but I think that they were clear on how that would be settled. 

21:44
I think the biggest issue you could take issue with is the fact that the market did remain open after the fact, and I talked to guys from CalSheet at the conference. I said that's where this whole thing has to get improved. Right. And listen, this happens with any product in the sportsbook space. It really does. There's no one who hasn't left the market market open after the fact. But that's really where this problem initiated. With that said, I think flop has to take responsibility. I think he's out 32k and it sucks, but that's the risk that's involved in sports betting, as he would say himself. So he can give his own perspective on friday and he's more than welcome to do that I'm not here to shelter anybody's takes. Uh, because we have a sponsorship. I think it's important for us to speak the truth, but I still love the CalSheet product personally and I honestly don't think that they were out of line here, other than making a mistake in keeping the market open. 

22:38 - Kirk Evans (Host)
Yeah, I think leaving the market open obvious mistake. I think anyone at CalSheet would agree. Otherwise you could debate on the rules. Honestly, I'm nothing, but it kind of does make more sense that the bet was live and if that's the case then the rules make a lot more sense. Um, but yeah, like I think cal she mostly was in the right. I think flop trying to get his money back is reasonable. I think going to twitter was just a mass, not massive, because at the end of the day, who cares? He has a little bit of pie on his face. But it was a miscalculation. 

23:11 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
Being livid, trying to get the money back like no issues, seeing Red, even sending out a tweet that you regret and delete. Kind of been there Like don't really see. I think I could see why everyone felt they were in the right here. 

23:26 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
I really feel for Flup because he's a personal friend of mine. I respect him a ton. So I don't love to see people I'm close with go through situations like that, Even when you kind of bring it upon yourself. It still bothers me a little bit, but at the end of the day sometimes you're in that situation where you're seeing red. You just got to take a take some time to process this yeah, flop's a fucking killer. 

23:54 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
yeah, like this. Just not that I didn't like I don't know him nearly as well as both of you, but just you know every incident. It comes more clear and I don't say that as a negative Right Might like not want to be at like the same poker table or maybe part of something where we're on different teams, but I want him on my side because I think he's a killer. Yeah, and he's a guy like in this game. I think you want your foxhole. 

24:19 - Kirk Evans (Host)
I agree, oh, absolutely 100%. And the thing about Flop to give him some credit here is I think Flop does sometimes, you know, get mad and do things a little reactionary, but he's also actually good at being like hand up, I was wrong, he deleted the tweet. He was like it was dumb, I tweeted it. I don't know if he regrets the whole incident, but, like Flop, he deleted the tweet, but it doesn't necessarily mean yeah it's settled for him well, we'll see. 

24:43 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
On friday he'll have more info. 

24:44 - Kirk Evans (Host)
Yeah, I think flop is good at recognizing he's wrong if he is wrong yeah, I I it might have been too late. In this instance damage is already done, but I, I think I agree but like the people on the show who we're going to talk about later to me, who just like dig and dig and dig and dig and dig and never come up for air and and obviously totally different situations. But I think flops good at. You know, if people he trusts says he's wrong, he can admit that. 

25:15 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
Yep all right. Well, we'll get on the topic of bet bash a little bit more a little bit later on, but we wanted to, on the topic of calci here, talk a little bit of golf here with our our golf man, jeff feinberg. We have a market pulled up here, uh, for the tour championship winner, scotty scheffler, uh, what I pulled this trading at 34 percent, rory mccarroy at nine percent and tommy fleetwood in third at seven percent. Scotty scheffler, of course, just made the comeback victory to take the BMW Championship. We'll go to you first of all on this one, jeff. How are you feeling ahead of this? 

25:52 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
And do you think this is accurate to Scotty Scheffler? I am so happy that I recorded, outside of some emergency or Ryder Cup stuff, my last golf podcast for many months. 

26:00 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
I'm so happy. 

26:02 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
Not that I'm not seeing the board. Well, right now you almost hit three winners in a row. Yeah, that was the this is just a hit and giggle. It's 30 fucking guys, it's gobs of money. Even for dead last I would. I would honestly say I wouldn't be making exact as in this market. Like, instead of betting without scotty, I would bet who I think would win exact. 

26:26 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Finish scotty first, my pick second all right, so here's what I'm gonna. Is that volume number correct, 169? So this was last night a million the current, so scotty shepard's currently trading at 35 percent. 

26:41 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
Uh is there a? 

26:41 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
decimal there. I can't tell. On my screen, Jacob, is that 169 million in volume above the search. 

26:48 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
That's what it says Okay. 

26:51 - Kirk Evans (Host)
Obviously that's not handle, that's like. 

26:53 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
So right now it's If you bet a dollar on a 1%, that counts as 100. 

26:58 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Yeah, sure, but still like. 

26:59 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
So the volume right now is a little bit more than this 169,728,000. 

27:05 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Yeah, okay. So massive, massive market here that's being bet into. So what I'm about to say is completely ridiculous. Okay, bear with me here, I'm not a golf expert at all At all. 

27:16
On the surface, whenever you see like someone like Scotty Scheffler, who you know that the chip in yesterday, which was absurd and like being talked about today, you almost never find value on the guys at the top of the board, right, like every casual wants to bet scotty scheffler in some capacity. However, I still like when? What's the math, what's the actual number on that? It's like minus 300, right, right, 33%. 

27:44 - Kirk Evans (Host)
Yeah, I agree. 

27:46 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
So Scotty to win, pays what Minus 300 to not win Correct, that's a bad bet. Like yes is a good bet. Yeah, yes is a good bet. How can I not look? 

27:54 - Kirk Evans (Host)
at this market he's going to-. I thought, you were saying the exact opposite. I was. 

28:10 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
So this is my thing, kirk. Like normal I'm, I'm programmed to look at these boards and be like there's no way there could be value on this guy at the top right, like he is at his peak right now. He's drawing the comparisons to Tiger in his prime which, honestly, statistically speaking, are not far off. 

28:16 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
Really, at this point or another, he's going to very likely start with strokes ahead of the field in that event, like he was plus 175 yesterday morning, down four strokes, so I would argue in a 30-man field starting even. Yeah, this is actually, this is a very fair yes number. Right, I'd put that out there oh yeah, sorry, am I wrong? 

28:42 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
they don't do the strokes anymore. There's no more starting strokes. Okay, I did. 

28:45 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
Okay, now this is relative to like comparables, okay. Um, yeah, sorry, there's no more starting okay appreciate you clearing that up for me. 

28:53 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
So in the final event no head start okay, so this makes more sense to me now and that's why I'm such a horrible. 

28:58 - Kirk Evans (Host)
Better, because I don't actually really understand what I'm betting on at some point or another even then it's still borderline feels wrong to me it does yeah, I would say that, like I don't know anything about golf, I know, I obviously know scotty's been unbelievable like intuitively, these are generally times where I would think like, maybe the nose of good luck yeah, I don't know for sure, but that like when everyone wants one thing and the public is only going one way and it's something feels inevitable. Yes, that's typically to me the time where you want to go all right, maybe I should just take some rec action here and post a no on something like Calchi. But I would need to look into more than that. But that's like where my betting intuition would take me. 

29:48 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
I'll be interested I'd rather be like the flop and step in front of like scotty live when you think that there's reinforcements yeah, I mean, I thought you were gonna see like be like the flop and step in front, or like the fozen and hit fleetwood. 

30:04 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
No 94 cents, you know. I actually Imagine Fleetwood's first win came as the Tour Championship. 

30:10 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
I'm going to, I'm invested, I'm actually. My bets this week are going to be like what could be the funniest fucking outcome. Yeah, tommy Fleetwood winning the Tour Championship winning like the season-long race Exponentially hilarious. Chaos. Winning the tour championship winning like the season-long race exponentially hilarious uh situation. Not that I'm betting on it, but like I'm cheering for brian harman to win to like make the rider cup team I can't cheer for brian harman because of the amount of waggles he sucks. 

30:36 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Reminds me of my brother. I'm just cheering for, like the funniest shit like unlived this week. 

30:40 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
John rom won zero tournaments, yeah, and neiman won like a third of the tournaments and he won their season long thing, yeah, which is pathetic. But I want something like that to happen on the PGA this week. 

30:52 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
All right, if you want to get involved with this market high liquidity markets like this, sometimes unique markets, sometimes more common markets like this you can do so by heading over to Kalshi. You can use the QR code that is on screen right now or at any time over the course of the podcast you're listening to or the video you're watching. You go to the link in the description, sign up to cal she today. At the same time, you can support the hammer betting network directly. All right, we're going to jump back into the bet bash discussions here. A little bit of a recap of other people's thoughts on bet bash and what went on. I know we talked about it a little bit already but, uh, we documented on the live show that jeff benson was taken out to dinner by grp wins and I think george had a room comped at circa. I think he had a limo that picked him up and drove him around and jeff benson, after bet bash said this, gave his at grp wins. 

31:42
Bet bash recap one dinner together at peter lug's, one incredible seminar performance, one losing PLO session at the win and zero circus survivor entries. I was duped, hoodwinked and bamboozled. At least I got a decent steak out of the whole deal. Do we think there's a limo? There is. There is a room comp. Do we think all this is happening If Jeff knew in advance there was no circus survivor entry that was going to happen? 

32:12 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
I don't think it would have happened, but I also read this and I also don't even feel like Benson is really upset. 

32:19 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
No, I think a little bit, he's not. He's not that upset. 

32:23 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
No, I know it is. It is hysterical though that like if you follow them around the week, like how much time they spent. They had a private dinner together and then he you know george said he was going to do a survivor entry and he didn't and I think it's because he lost 500 bucks in that plo session. I was coming down from my room when george was walking back into Circa after he lost the money. He wasn't in a great mood, he didn't really want to chat. Plus, he's spending money on Fremont Street to have like snakes wrapped around him and stuff like that as well. More money not going towards Circa Survivor, but I don't know. 

33:01 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
I was asked by someone in the outside world about the George Benson benson relationship and I just put a simple like benson knows, like george george fox yeah, like george fox that's a simple like. I think he feels a little deterred about the zero contest entries. But I think benson's like now that's in my content pocket, like that is now something he can now hold against George and George is looking for handouts maybe in the future, but I don't think there's like a limo ride from the airport on zero contest. 

33:35 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
I think that was part of like the like. It's kind of like an unwritten rule. You know it's like we're gonna hook you up with all this stuff because you're doing the. But George is a big fish and don't let people like your people can presume he's like we're going to hook you up with all this stuff because you're doing the. 

33:45 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
But George is a big fish and don't let people people can presume he's like a minnow, but like Benson is happy to reel in that fish. 

33:54 - Kirk Evans (Host)
Yeah, I would say that and you guys were there so you could correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel like I was kind of on the side of like George is doing a seminar. That's dumb. What's Spanky doing Felt like George was a big winner of the week. Oh yeah. 

34:08 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
George was. George owns it. I got into experience a couple of days with George Like he owns it and not in a way where, like other people, are awkward or take themselves so seriously. George is so goddamn comfortable in his skin being george nfl capping savant in the midwest helping mom. 

34:31 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
He, he, he's so comfortable in his role that it rattles people I I think in the past there's been some issues around women and, in particular, some tweets that have rubbed people the wrong way. In regards to george and like I'm not gonna condone that I personally did not see him like hitting on anyone. This week is in years past or anything like that. So maybe he's learning his lessons and and going on, but I I think that's a lot of what and some people just don't understand the fascination and I, george, wouldn't even win creepiest guy there, oh not even close. 

35:07 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
Yeah, that's what he wouldn't even podium him. 

35:11 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
Him commenting during the live circle back was like I was laughing seriously, it was just like it was so good because I wanted to ask him about the notebook in person and he sat front row when I saw the only person who was in frame on the camera that was provided by by bet bash. I just literally could not have gone. 

35:32 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Anybody instruct them I directed me. 

35:34 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
Just sat there, I went, this is perfect yeah. 

35:37 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
So I actually I think I can't remember the exact joke I ripped on him there, but I felt I actually felt bad in the moment. I was like, oh, I think I might have just crossed the line. I don't think so. No. 

35:47 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
George is actually so the type of shit people say to George that slides off his back, yeah. 

35:56 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
The next one we have is from Pete SSBC at PeteLing1. Says BetBash Vegas. Recap as I leave, before tonight's Black Tie dinner Final first time here couldn't be more impressed. Great connections made, almost too many question mark. Some quality seminars attended, highlights being antonino's on scaling and the mindset with elliot and samantha. Um, I wasn't able to attend any seminars because I was there for work, but uh, antonino's was the one I did want to go to. I I unfortunately did miss, but overall, like I very much enjoyed Bet Bash. I haven't really gave my thoughts on it all yet I really enjoyed it. I think the biggest thing for me was like everyone was just so nice there, like everyone was willing to chat with you, interact with you. Nobody really felt like standoffish at all. So the people there were amazing. Rob, do you have any extra thoughts? 

36:43 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
No, I love the event. I will go pretty much every year. As long as it remains like this type of format, I love it. For me, I kind of treat it as a party, so that's maybe why I like it a little bit more. I don't go to every seminar and panel, but I'm there for networking and to interact with people that I don't see regularly and to meet new people. I think it's. 

37:10
I think it's a great event and, um, honestly, it kind of triggers me when people like shit on it. They're like, oh, it's this cash grab, like why would you pay a thousand dollars to do this and that? And it's like I, I personally, would pay more than the event is priced seriously. And I like this is, yes, fanky's my friend, but like I'm not his bitch or anything, I'm not here to promote the event I genuinely, I genuinely just really enjoy it. I like the camaraderie that comes with it. I like I you know one thing Pete did say great connections made almost too many question mark. I do find that maybe I don't have enough time with certain people over the course of a week, cause there are actually so many people there that I want to interact with. But like that's a nice problem to have. So, um, not my first time there, my fifth time I've been to every single bet bash. I will continue going until the end of time and I really, really look forward to it. 

37:58 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
Do we have like in this role? 

38:10 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
not because I didn didn't do the homework. Is there going to be like the? 

38:11 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
standard tweet of like pazola big time to me at bet bash I. I don't think it's well, here's what I will. It's not in here, you know, I didn't because I don't know. I'm just saying it could get like you're willing to, you're there, but if someone could feel like, oh, you didn't say hi to them or you're too like, so big for them, but it'd be like dude, you have to come say hi to me I'm a teddy bear, not specifically about gonzola, but we have a tweet that kind of touches, so I I didn't. 

38:29 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
I didn't do speed networking. For the first time this year I made the choice not to sign up for speed networking. Uh, last year I didn't really love the pairings that I got. I got a lot of touts, I got physic, I got grp maybe spanky was trolling you. No, because it's done by a separate organization and, honestly, it's really thoroughly organized. So I didn't do that and I was wondering if people would be disappointed in that. But I make myself very available at these. I'm at all the events. I'm at the open bars, I'm at Legacy Club. Every single night you will see me on the casino floor. Any single person that introduces themselves to me gets the time of day and that's very important to me. It's kind of why I come home and feel like I've been there for a year. But for what we do and for what this brand was built off of and my own personal brand, I think that's really important. 

39:22 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
No, of course, but they have to come say hi to you? Yes, they have anyone who's approached you. Wouldn't come and say like pizola, big time I you would not find somewhere. 

39:31 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
Uh. Next tweet here from knish talks about matt silbert who, uh, didn't have a very good betting trip in terms of betting. Uh, he says zilbo immediately going on a cooler as soon as bet bash starts, as he's live swimming the games in the book at Circa, the tank, the nice season he was going, he has going, is just incredible cinema. The scriptwriters really outdid themselves with this one. So I know for a fact he is 1-12. In the last week I'm pretty sure he was, I don't know he was 0-8. He was 0-4. At Circa he won a bet. I think it was yesterday. I think he was 0-8 when he was physically in Las Vegas on his bets, it's a win for Benson. 

40:12
There were reports of the lines that he was using for his bets not actually being in existence. 

40:21 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
I did experience that. I asked Zilbert for a few bets where he gave me lines that never existed. I will say this to people who are like the GRP thing is a shtick. Zilbert is a shtick. It's definitely not. These are who they are. It's not a shtick. Zilbo hacking butts in the middle of Circa, sweating baseball games all day was actually one of the highlights of my trip. I knew exactly where I could find him at all times. One time he was running by me and I actually stopped him to say hello and he couldn't get a live bet in. That was going to be on an under and immediately a home run was hit. So he was thanking me for the rest of the day that he got an extra half run because of because he ran into me. 

41:05
But then I also watched the end of that game play out, where I I want to say he had like a couple runs to spare, with one out in the ninth, and I watched it all fall apart like I was. I was sitting with mr peanut better fake sharp um beagle bets, a few other guys, and we just saw this happening and I was like, oh man, like I actually just I really wanted him to win a game at some point, but uh, it was. It was an experience for sure. And, um, I mean, this is like part of the reason I want to go to these types of events. Some people are they're like, oh, like, why should Zilbert be there? I don't know, I want to, I want to meet these people that are in the industry. 

41:51 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
I don't really care and I, I, I think he was a an interesting, an interesting cat, as he would say. I've seen it being debated like people on the fence, about going to bet bash, not going to bet bash. Is that a turn off? Is that like an? Is that something that would turn people off? And I'm of the mind that if you have the brain, if you're smart enough to think, you should go to bet bash. Yeah, you have the brain capacity to know exactly what a george um matt seminar is. Yeah, that's opposite a judah seminar. That, like that, doesn't mean you're not get that your value algorithm on your ticket has changed in any way and that there is a big portion of the bet bash hard. Oh, smart pro, better community that actually enjoys that comedic relief aspect of the seminar it's also like a very heavy conference. 

42:43 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
So, like you know, you go to grp's elbow, you get like a break in the day almost. You're just like what, what is possibly going to happen next year? 

42:51 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
but but I heard about people that aren't on the internet. 

42:54 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
That ended up in grp's seminar there was a few that walked out of there like they didn't know what they. 

43:02 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
They didn't realize that this is nfl futures. There needed to be a warning like if you are not perpetually online. 

43:09 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
You are not. 

43:10 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
You should do not go into this nfl future I heard a few people after that that were like that was wild, like I don't, I don't, they didn't. They had no idea. They had no idea what was going to happen there. 

43:21 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
Uh, next tweet is from kirk evans, who talks about how crazy it is to see that, with people at best, bet bash having a real effect on market efficiency. Do you want to elaborate on that one a bit? Was this real? 

43:33 - Kirk Evans (Host)
yeah, 100 like well, one, even just for me. All my movers were gone, so it was literally like I had to. Like it was much harder to get down, but like yeah, nfl preseason was last week, a quarterback would go out a minute, two minutes longer than normally. 

43:53 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
What would happen based on that news was hitman also on the golf course, or uh, in addition, because he wasn't at bat bash yeah, hitman's locked in, but like people know like it that things were taking longer. 

44:04 - Kirk Evans (Host)
Even like a wnba total, I got down at like 11 30 in the morning. Like no way that total would have been around by 11 30. But it makes sense as much as like it feels like a massive community, like there aren't very many winning originators and better. So, like you take how many people are at bet bash I, I want to estimate like 700. 

44:26 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
Yeah, you take 700 of them and they stop working like it's gonna have an impact on the market it's true, that makes total sense why there'd be stale WNBA in preseason. 

44:37 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
This one comes from Justin Woodcock at Positive EV Play, but it's a reply to a tweet from Bradley. Tabitha, she was at Stacks. Was she marketing at Stacks, something along those lines, previously? Yes, previously. Anyways, fezzik's been recently kind of flying her banner trying to get her employed somewhere Previously. Yes, on this one too much right now, but Jason probably one day will tell you how he did not have a very good interaction with Tabitha, not Fezzik, tabitha as well. He did not have a very good interaction with her. 

45:24 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
I didn't hear this story. 

45:26 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
How many enemies did Jason make? 

45:30 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
I don't know, at least two and props to Fezzik. 

45:32
I wouldn't say he made an enemy, it was just not. She didn't seem to very much want to speak with him, according to him, but I'm going to let him tell that story one day. Well, I guess she's Team Fezzik. I don't know, you'll have to ask him. The next tweet comes from Calvin and Hobo. It says one of my favorite social dynamics at BetFast was seeing the smaller scale originators, such as myself, standing on the edge of the section top areas having a hard time just going up to people and saying hi out of the blue. Well, the big time originators and the movers were all the life of the party, laughing loudly and having engaging conversations. That's 100 not a coincidence and a part of scaling that I need to get better at made a number of great connections and had some amazing conversations. Once I got over myself and just started saying hi to people, I didn't know for anyone planning to come next year. Make sure you do that from the jump. Um, so that goes to. 

46:19 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Jeff's point. Like I, I try to make myself available but that doesn't mean everyone will be willing to go up to you. Uh, I want to say you alerted me to Calvin and hobo a long time ago, saying he'd make a good for a good circles off guest. Did I, you did Um, I also um. He also came up to me at the end of the circle back recording and um shared a very private message with me. But it was very positive and I I highly highly appreciated that he did do that. So I'm glad he did muster up the courage to do so. It is challenging. There's a lot of people like these open bars that start at seven o'clock by seven 30. They are incredibly jammed and I will say me navigating those. Definitely it's really easy for me to go up to people I know and say hi, but if you're from the outside looking in and you don't, you don't have that connection. It could definitely be a little bit more challenging I mean, this is just human nature. 

47:13 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
We can all relate to this, unless you're like a very outward person. Yeah Right, because it's like you feel like, even though it's a conference and people say like come chat, you still feel like you're stepping on someone's toes. I would almost like find it If you filmed me in this scenario. You would get like incredibly funny footage, because you would see me like trying to go in to like land the plane and then like abort the land, circle back, try to like get some air again, see if I can come back in again. Land that plane yeah, just hope not to crash the plane, but the amount of like landing attempts it might like take me before I went over and said hi to even like sammy p or something. Yeah, like everyone seems very friendly, but I would I relate to this very much even if I come off as someone on the show. 

48:06 - Kirk Evans (Host)
That's like outreverted and I just like him tweeting this because I totally agree with you like this is something a lot of people experience, but like generally people don't tweet like insecurities or like vulnerable statements on twitter and this is just like, obviously true. I'm sure a lot of people felt that way. 

48:23 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
Good for you for tweeting it and it's a funny mental image because you can see how that divide would be. You know pozole and p-body and all the cronies yucking it up. And then there's these like group of guys like on the out there but on the outside all wanting to get in the cool kids club. 

48:40 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
I can't even imagine showing up to this and not really knowing people. I would be a mess in that scenario. I was a little bit concerned before these networking events. I was fortunate that from working with the Hammer I know a lot of these people and I got to meet them in person for the first time, which was great. But I was a little bit taken aback by, like people who knew me just from the show so I was lucky in that regard. But like if there's like there's no way I could just show up to this event on my own and just start introducing myself to people. 

49:07 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
I don't think they probably need to like pound a couple drinks in their room as icebreakers before they say hi to the pretty girl bazola, but I can relate I think, jeff, I hate to be the guy that does this, but if I don't do it, there's going to be a comment about how me and kirk are idiots. You said outroverted, uh outrovert, extrovert. I just had to do it because these people, they don't let it go let the comment the commenters are like oh, I can't believe bazola didn't correct jeff when he said this wrong get it. 

49:35 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
Roast me and leave a comment. Roast me in the comments. It's all for the comments. Uh, last part. 

49:42 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
Last part of our bet bash recap is uh, rob grabbed a piece of history at bet bash. Uh, rob, you said you were just walking to the vip dinner when you spotted the famous very large notebook that grp used for his seminar at bet bash, which we talked about during the live show. And uh, if you have a keen eye watching, you know it's been in the background of the shot this entire time, down in the corner there. Um, maybe we'll get it framed one day. Yeah, I think we will. We gotta do something. 

50:12 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
I also have all the sheets. I brought home every single sheet of paper that was ripped off. There's some really interesting ones out there. This one's interesting because he just wrote out the odds for every comeback player of the year and then wrote rules. 

50:24 - Kirk Evans (Host)
Question mark Rules question mark. 

50:25 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
So I don't know what was happening there, but it is there. Broner asked how much would you need to be paid to part with it? Like it's not on the table to be to part with it? Like it's not on the table, it's it's. I mean, maybe if somebody wanted to make like an enormous donation to charity, I would give it up to them. Um, if we, we did some sort of like diabetes, uh, research or responsible gaming, maybe, uh, but uh, for now it's staying here there's a shot and you know what it was just 

50:55
gonna get taught like it. Yeah, when you go upstairs to the third floor, at circle where the ballroom is, you walk by like this little booth area and that's where, like the bet bash coordinators are sitting. I saw luke there, uh, spanky's head trader, and uh, you know, I asked, I asked him. I can't remember if he asked me or if I asked him, but I saw it there on the counter behind him like like, like, what's happening with that? And he's like, oh, we're going to get rid of it, like, do you want it? I'm like, absolutely, I'm bringing it down with me and I did. 

51:22
It was a great decision. That can't be easy to pack. You know what I carry. I took a full luggage this time. It's extremely rare that I do that. 

51:31 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
I almost always pack for a week. 

51:33 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Yeah, I was there for a week, plus the golf trip, where I had to pack my golf shoes and some golf gear because I didn't bring my clubs. I had to put a lot of stuff in the bag that just fit perfectly. I had to fold it slightly right on top, but I got home right away unpacked it, put some heavy boxes on top to try to flatten it out and it's looking like it's in good shape A piece of history. 

52:03
Always with us in this. Like you explained to your wife why you're like manicuring this oversized notepad with like that was the toughest conversation I had all week. She's like why would you bring this home? And I'm like showing her tweets of like grp and she's like I don't get it. What's so funny and I'm like I just can't see my wife is whenever I'm laughing about something gambling related, I see, see, on Twitter, I sit there and I laugh to myself. 

52:21
She's like what's so funny? And I'm like I can't explain this to you. It's just so funny to me and after a while she's like I would really like if you tried to explain them to me, like I'd like to be in on these jokes. 

52:31 - Kirk Evans (Host)
Has she ever once thought it was funny? 

52:32 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
This regrets the first time I did it and then she's like. 

52:35 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
She's like never mind, just just go back to yeah, because you're like I can keep talking, honey, but it only gets weirder I promise. 

52:42 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
I mean, how would you go like? Think about trying to explain. 

52:45 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
I had to explain to my wife that I'm going to visit him. That's true, it's summertime. I got three kids yes and I got to explain why I'm going to the midwest eat breakfast with this revered character that that content is dropping soon. 

53:00 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
By the way, look out for that hammer hq youtube channel. 

53:03 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
Uh, follow us on twitter at the hammer hq as well uh, speaking of content, there were a lot of people at bed bash who graciously provided their time to record some additional content with with myself in the. The bunk bed suite that we had at the bunk bed suite was a hit. Everyone loved the bunk bed suite that came in and had a had a look at it uh, including rufus, who did come in, and we have some content coming out with him involved as well in the future. Now, you said it earlier on the show. It was jeff said it'd be difficult to meet somebody, have a great interaction with them and then be upset with something they said online. That's a pretty good example coming up here because Rufus was a great guy and he provided his time and I'm very thankful for that. But I don't really agree with what he said here in regards to Steve Fezzik. So Rufus at Rufus Peabody pointed out, had a nice civil discussion with Fezzik Sports today at Bet Bash. Fezz feels like it's heads. You win tails. I lose with Twitter interactions. I said there are lots of people who always look to attack him because he sells pics. He mentioned a parallel with identity politics. Example XYZ is a Dem, so everything he or she does is wrong. It feels like people are criticizing the messenger and not focusing on the message. I'm guilty of this myself at the time at times, and I will try to do better. 

54:13
Followed it up by also saying things that, in my opinion, are valid criticisms of Fez's service giving out lines that are available at less than 30% of books, going against his own services criteria. Number two, selling other people's plays. Number three, giving out live lines without heads up to clients with a 60 second window to bet them. And number four, misleading advertising by highlighting short term win streaks in the midst of a down year. I think it's valid to criticize his recent record, but I also think that by picking arbitrary endpoints without looking at a broader picture, some of these criticisms undermine the more legitimate arguments by doing the very thing that I've criticized Steve for doing. Number four right angle sports, obviously also very notorious in the pick selling game, says good, constructive criticism for Feds, exports and all pick sellers. 

54:58
Agree with all four of these and would add five inflated units, slash stars every play, two to three stars and six hard to follow release times very early, slash late, often without any sort of warning. Uh, mr peanut, better, mike um had this to say about it. He says I agree all caps. I agree. Those who are negative to pick sellers don't have any credibility. I would go further Must sell picks in order to have an opinion on pick sellers. Until you know the pain of sending losing plays to customers, don't speak on it. Rob, what were your thoughts on this? I actually, funny enough, was alerted to this tweet because Rufus' tweets are displayed on the big screen at Circa. 

55:34 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
I saw this one about Fezzik. 

55:38 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
I immediately went to my phone. I'm like what the hell is going on here. 

55:48 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
So that was good. But, rob, what were your thoughts? Yeah, so my initial response to reading those tweets was like one of the most massive eye rolls I've ever done in my entire life. I think you can't really have it both ways in these types of scenarios. Right, rufus has notorious I don't want to say picked on Fezzik, but he's been critical of him and I think, definitely some of the human interactions, you see a different side of a person and you know, I kind of saw that with my interaction with Yanni, the Greek right, where he came up to me and he's like you got a problem. 

56:18
I'm like, yeah, I got a problem. And he's like, well, what's your problem? And I explained that from the ages of like 16 to 25, I was a big time losing better. I got misled by touts, I bought losing picks and I don't really respect that side of the industry. 

56:33
And you know people who go through a lot of the actions, um, that are there, um, by the end of it, you know he's kind of giving me his side of the story and, uh, I don't, I don't want to get into like all the details of there. 

56:45
It's a private conversation. But you know you're like, okay, this guy maybe is not as bad as as I may have had him out to be, but at the end of the day, he's still doing these things right. So, like I'm not going to go to Twitter and post like this rebuttal of like oh, I had this great conversation with this guy and you know he's actually a nicer guy. Like, at the end of the day, you're either engaging in the shady practices or you're not, and I don't really think that there's much of a middle ground to be had here. So obviously my own personal bias and my relationship with Steve comes into play when I'm evaluating this type of situation. But it actually felt rather inauthentic from Rufus and usually I consider him to be a pretty authentic person, so that was just my vibe. 

57:38 - Kirk Evans (Host)
Yeah, no, I think that I like Rufus a lot. I think that tweet is, frankly, ridiculous. I think the comparison to identity politics is completely insane. We're not criticizing Fezzik because he believes something. We're criticizing Fezzik because he believes something. We're criticizing Fezzik because we think he's doing something actively wrong, and the thing that really frustrates me is that these you know Fezzik like in that tweet, rass as well. Like they. Okay, I can totally empathize. I don't think these are bad people, by any means. 

58:14 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
I don't think that they want to. I actually I mean like the vast minority of I don't think Fezzik people, by any means I don't think that they want to do anything bad. I actually am in like the vast minority of I don't think Fezzik is like intentionally scamming people. 

58:20 - Kirk Evans (Host)
Oh yeah, sorry, I think he actually believes he's doing help to people. Sure, at least intentionally bad. But, like I, have a big belief that you aren't like what you say, you're what you do Like you're not a good person because you, you are nice to people and you have good interactions. 

58:42
That's how people form to to think if you're a nice person is how you interact with. But actually what makes you a good or bad person is what you do, and like to me the idea that, like you should in rufus's tweet, you shouldn't care about that. It's an arbitrary end part and it's a reasonable criticism that he's down this year. He's down 70 units now. Yeah, over 70. It's a reasonable criticism that he's down this year. He's down 70 units now. 

58:57 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Yeah, over 70. 

58:58 - Kirk Evans (Host)
It's 70 units on top of all these four things of giving out lines at only 30 bucks, selling other people's plays, Like that's on top of all of that. Even RAS like again, I can empathize with people being like I need to earn. I understand that. But, like RAS, I went on their website last night I was looking at this last three years of picks. It's 1500 picks. 

59:21
it's like one and a half percent roi the idea that and and it's like 27 units, 19 of those units are in extra games the idea that the amount of money you would have to spend to subscribe to every single one of their packages get worse lines, things like that, that it's a good service. In my opinion, that's frankly ridiculous. I don't care, like about these people in turn, like I don't, I don't. I didn't know feather before gambling, I didn't know the people at rast. I just think that what they sell is bad and I think I'm allowed to say that without feeling bad, because maybe they're nice to you and your interactions. 

01:00:00 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
I think that's very fair. Also, you should say how you feel, because it's how you feel and like they're entitled to sell picks and do that and have a living and provide, but that doesn't mean you have to like treat them as do-gooders, yes, either. Uh, although that's all I want to say on that peanut, better is truly one of the best twitter he's number one for me. 

01:00:33 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Yeah, I don't his threads. 

01:00:36 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
I can't even like single them out now because there were so many things he had me just in stitches laughing about. 

01:00:42 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
He is to this space on twitter what like shohei is to baseball I was fortunate enough to play a bunch of craps with peanut better, who has absolutely no idea how to play craps, so was tailing bets from other people at the table and watched him hit back to back. Uh, midnight bets, so a 12 to be rolled, 31 to 1. I'm like you're an actuary, you know the odds on this should be 36 to 1. He's like I don't care, I'm tailing bet. He literally hit them back to back, made like 4500 and back-to-back spins. Um, truly hysterical dude. I'm glad you called that out, because I've been meaning to do that for a while. I think if I had to do like a rankings of my favorite twitter accounts, I I don't think this is like tier one. God, tier basically s tier no one. 

01:01:25 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
Close on this, just to get my thoughts in on this conversation. In regards to fez, like I, just I when I saw this tweet, like the thing that screamed out to me what does Fezzik provide to the industry of value? The service right now is down 70 plus units. You could talk about this all time numbers, whatever, but giving out Rufus literally lifts out. He's giving out lines on a consistent basis that are not widely available. He gives out other people's plays consistently. He gives out. He's been giving out live bets this season and even his customers are complaining about it, like there's no way they're able to get this down. And then he's highlighting these short-term losers. Like all of this is happening. So like I just don't understand why Rufus would be sticking his neck out for this, where there are all these valid criticisms. 

01:02:18 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
It was just a really weird couple tweets because it seemed like he was pointing out that these exist, but he was like kind of dampening everything by saying like I'm guilty of of like making judgments myself where it's also like dismissing all of these valid criticisms. I don't know, it was just it read really weird to me and when I read it I was like why, I don't know, it was just it read really weird to me and when I read it I was like why? I don't know why he would. I mean we could ask rufus at some other point in time why he would, but I, I I would guess he had an interaction with steve which he said he did, where he he maybe felt bad for the, the amount of criticism that's happened in the past and that's relatable. There's been times before where I've went after some other people and you meet them and you're like fuck, you know I do feel bad, but those criticisms are still really real and I wouldn't kind of backtrack them because of Because you feel bad. 

01:03:08 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
Yeah, I mean that's just Totally. 

01:03:10 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
You know the reality of it. 

01:03:11 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
We'll move into our next topic here, on the topic of pick sellers, who can do, can have some scummy practices on on certain occasions, not particularly phasic, but just any. In general, people are quick to want to alert others of these shady practices that do take place, and a potential example arose on twitter from at platinum tips double underscore uh says drop your fucking cash app, slash venmo. Uh, I am the fucking goat giving everyone that likes and comments a thousand dollars, which I don't really think is going to be the case, because this was a tweet that occurred on august 17th 2025 at 12 31 am. It is a parlay uh plus 980,000 for Jason Dominguez to two plus home runs, and Harrison I actually don't know how to pronounce his name Bader, to hit two plus home runs $25 parlay return $240,000. 

01:04:08 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
How would you pronounce that in any other way? Jacob Could be batter? You would call Harrison batter Could have been. I mean, that would typically have to. I will continue. I'll drop it now, let's move on. 

01:04:21 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
Anyways, $25 to win $240,000. Now, as someone points out here, in parlay Bay parlay underscore Bay Bader plays for the Phillies bro, which is an accurate statement, but this is a tweet of a screenshot of a bet that took place on july 4th. So, calling out yes, because this is a screenshot that has bader playing for the medicaid 20 now plays for the phillies, but platinum tips, using this parlay from july 4th to get people to interact with a tweet to get a thousand dollars when I I will personally guarantee uh well, actually I will almost personally guarantee settle down jason because it's a disclaimer at the start of the video that, uh, this user has not sent a thousand dollars to everyone that likes and comments on this post here considering it's got got 877,000 views at the time I would assume that the probably was like a like ratio and comment pretty high up there, so definitely. 

01:05:23
So a good job at getting interactions, but again highlighting some tendencies here. So originally we kind of looked at this tweet because we were like what an idiot. He photoshopped it and had this guy the wrong team. 

01:05:33 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
But now we're looking at it like OK, it's just a screenshot from over a month ago, like yeah, what do you think on this, rob? Well, just jeff will get into it first here. But I want to point out that how quickly, like this, the fire spreads. The wildfire spreads in these types of situations, because mr peanut better sent it to us in a circle back group chat. I also got it from two other friends, um as well. So to the masses, this does look like this person was getting dunked on by parlay bay, even though this is an actual screenshot so it's just, we don't wait, we don't know for sure if it's an actual screenshot, because we're going by the correct amounts. 

01:06:16 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
It's an older winning bet that he's using it for promotion on july 4th. 

01:06:20 - Kirk Evans (Host)
It was photoshopped because harrison bader now played for a different team. Yes, but on july 4th both of them actually did hit two home runs on the same day. 

01:06:28 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
So it's at least plausible, if not likely, that so I'm gonna go under the assumption that this is like a greatest hits of his and the people who are watching this show. 

01:06:38
If they're bothered by this, I obviously understand why that makes sense. I'd love to like show you my danny willett 151 masters ticket, right? But my point being is they look at this the same way that someone like repairs does driveways looks at it. I'm going to show you my best work and it like that's what this is. They're not looking at it from your angle of how you bet or what you think is ethical. They are out there. This is how they make their living, in the same way that a guy who who does stonework makes his living and how he's going to promote that is show his greatest work. This is what I can do for you in your front yard, your, your driveway, your backyard, whatever. So it's annoying, but you have to look at it from the perspective from which they see it as, and it is of that, of the one I'm explaining yeah, out of out of you know people whose twitter names are called platinum tips and and that similar ilk. 

01:07:41 - Kirk Evans (Host)
This is like a two out of ten. The honestly, my biggest problem is that he said giving everyone that likes and comments a thousand dollars. That's the most ridiculous part to me. But yeah, like I think people, I think it's easy to just immediately assume like photoshop. When I did look at this and I sent in the chat last night, I'm like I don't, I didn't think, I never thought that this was likely Photoshop. 

01:08:03 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Well, to your point, right, when you end a tweet with with with that still recovering from Vegas, giving everyone that likes and comments a thousand dollars. The vast majority of people are going to see that and they're going to make the assumption that this person is a grifter. Now, some people might not Some people get got by not knowing any better but most level-headed people are going to make the assumption that that's a grifter. Now, when that is accompanied by a screenshot like this, that naturally gives people the assumption that this is a fake ticket. He's photoshopped this in some capacity or whatever. Now this likely seems like it was a real ticket. 

01:08:44
That was made on july 4th. Harrison bader was playing for the twins at the time and I think one of the challenges I'm all for going after scum touts I really am. I think more of it should happen honestly than it does right now, and a lot of it does happen right now. But when you go after someone like Parley Bay does there and you are wrong about it, it gives the tout extra ammunition. It's like you've created this false narrative. They paint themselves in like backs against the wall, like look, they're making stuff up about me now like this and that, and there is like I don't want to say catastrophic consequences to that, but there are consequences to that where they can kind of show a level of realism or they can use it to their advantage. So I appreciate the effort by Parley Bay. Just got to be confident when you're making these shots because when they are proven otherwise, it can have the opposite type of effect. 

01:09:55 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
Agreed. All right, we'll move into the next topic up today in just a second here, but before we do, we are gonna have a quick word from myself. What's up everyone? Jacob Grimendi, here from Circle Back. If you're watching and enjoying the show, if you've ever laughed, learned something or watched me lose my mind over the Raptors offseason, hit the like button, subscribe to the channel and send this video to someone who bets. Seriously. It takes just 5 seconds and it helps us grow a lot more than you think. We don't have a marketing team, just me, a few hosts and a dream. So help us out. Click, click the button, support the grind and, yes, the knee brace is holding up. 

01:10:32
Fine, thanks for asking time to dig into the comments from the live show that we did at bet bash. I pulled three comments from that live show. The first one comes from at the only. What is this? The only ty crane, ty crane, whatever it is. I don't need to see the interview educational episodes every week or even every month, but every once a while it's nice to take a little deep dive into a person's niche of the sports betting industry. Rob, do you want to talk about this a little bit more? 

01:10:57 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Yeah, so there are some plans to evolve this channel even further going forward as we get into football season. So there will be some interview style content and educational episodes. Definitely not every week and educational episodes Definitely not every week. But yeah, I respect that there's people who found this channel via Circles Off which was exclusively like interviews and educational episodes. Now we're something completely different. We're gonna kind of find that balance point. So appreciate the comment and kind of that's exactly what we'll be going for in the near future here. 

01:11:26 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
And I have a bunch of content recorded with a lot of the pro bettors who are at Bet Bash. So look out for that content coming soon as well. Make sure you're subscribed to the channel to keep up to date with all of that content. The next comment comes from at quiet gym dash F, o, a, e, h. Didn't golf invent red zone in the 1950s? If other sports want to copy, they would be better advised to use golf as a template. Would have figured out how to include commercials without diluting the product. It has. Golf kind of figured out the red zone in a way. Uh, why don't we go to you, jeff? 

01:11:56 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
I don't know what we're talking about. 

01:11:58 - Kirk Evans (Host)
Like golf as a sport, I guess is kind of like red zone right, they're going from got player to player so on on the live show. 

01:12:04 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
Yeah, no, I saw that. 

01:12:05 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
I just I mean, we've been saying that golf could do more of like what we call like a green zone more often. No, I think I mean Scotty missed a couple real short ones yesterday, but I think too much of like a golf telecast is watching guys hit three footers. Yeah, I agree with that, I would agree. 

01:12:30 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
So I don't, I don't, no, I don't think golf, golf TV coverage. 

01:12:32 - Kirk Evans (Host)
I guess if you's saying like just a standard golf event is like red zone I never thought of it that way, but it is kind of yes, but like, it's not like, but the sport is more conducive to that type of coverage. 

01:12:39 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
There is not really any, I'd argue I would argue that golf coverage is more like they get stuck. I'm watching too much of featured players walking than like other great golf shots on property Right. 

01:12:52 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Yeah, I, I I never thought of it like that. To be honest with you, I think it is kind of a version of red zone, but there's no other way you would cover this. But, if you just turn on a camera on every hole and you just put up all the footage, like you have to have some way of I would never mind you show. 

01:13:15 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
But I don't think they understand, like, how much rogue, like the footage doesn't have to be perfect, yeah, for me to want to pay for, like a camera that just sits above every green and have access to it, I don't even need commentary, yeah, and I don't. They think everything has to have like professional graphics and intros, like it doesn't. I don't think they understand, like, how rogue gamblers and sports fans would actually accept the feeds that I used to watch on bet 365. 

01:13:40 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Yeah, some of these were like people streaming from their cell phones in the crowd and I would watch them when betting on an event. So I agree with you on that. 

01:13:56 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
The last comment is from buckle up. Eight, nine six two says $347 for dinner for two. Shocked, vegas is dying. So this is a in reference to the receipt from GRP and Jeff Benson's dinner. Three to $47 for two. I mean they went to a nice like steak dinner spot. Yeah, that's probably what you'd expect to pay, but the the conversation around vegas is dying, I think, is prevalent from being there as well. It is very expensive, uh, in vegas to just get like simple meals and even just like just grabbing like a couple beers is expensive, and we were you guys were kind of talking about before the show started. Uh, I haven't, I'm not as experienced in vegas that was my second time there but like, can you guys talk a little bit about how it's really evolved to be something completely different than what it used to be? 

01:14:35 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
I will say, my algo right now is flooded with this. Yeah from short form to long form of like va, like Vegas is dead yeah, vegas is dead life from the strip. Yeah um, from like mainstream to like rogue independent people. It is all over my alco. 

01:14:52 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
It's definitely Well. First of all, there's many reasons I can attribute to Vegas dying. I mean generally, though, tourism to the US is down, especially from Canada. I know for us it's quite challenging with the conversion rate to the American dollar, and when you're paying $6 US for a coffee it's like $9 Canadian. That contributes, but I do feel like, in a sense, you've kind of always been price gouged a bit in Vegas, but it's gotten a little too extreme now with everything. 

01:15:29 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
But the perks are less, less, which hurts people agreed and and even like threat. 

01:15:34 - Kirk Evans (Host)
I agree it's like a, a nice dinner place and I haven't been to peter luger's, to be fair, but like when I was in vegas a few times ago, we went out for nice meals. They were way more expensive than they would be in toronto and considerably worse. Agree with you. 

01:15:52 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Carbone is an example for me of the last time, where everyone is raving about Carbone and whatever, and I went there and I'm like there's better Italian food in the Kleinberg village where I live. 

01:16:03
I don't understand. Listen, I'm like Jerry Seinfeld. I carry around the man purse with me, the European carry all. I like fine things. I really do. I'm not scared to admit that, like when I, when I go on a trip, I like things to be good. I stay at expensive hotels, whatever I. That's kind of like for me why I bet on sports. But it has gotten to a point now where it's like no, this is getting, this is getting stupid. It really is getting stupid. A lot of the the experiences there are are actually insane to the point where, like, you're even pricing out people who would regularly spend money and have the disposable income to do so. So, um, I remember my first trips in Vegas, probably with you, jeff, I don't know if you remember those. We were like Henderson Nevadavada not even on those yeah, sunset station like remotes. 

01:16:51
I was buying beers for like a dollar. You know it's. It's very, very different now everything like got to. 

01:16:59 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
They tried to make everything too fancy in my opinion, and they figured if we make it fancier, we can raise the price points, and I'm even talking about, like not the nicest places on the strip and it got to a point where, like, everything was way more expensive. Anyone with real money doesn't give a fuck about vegas. Yeah, never wants to go to vegas. Okay, they don't trust it's disgusting even 15 years ago. 

01:17:24
Yeah, if you have real money, yeah, yeah. And then, like sometimes, even if I could afford it, like I like it a little grungy and they took that from me like somewhere nice on the strip like a planet Hollywood. That was like at a perfect level, good location, yeah, not dirty, not too dirty, but not nice. Um, you know me and my friends, when we get together, like sometimes we want to keep it dusty yeah, I get that I'll sit. 

01:17:56 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
The last thing I'll say on on vegas is that I do feel like it has gotten um dirtier, so to speak, like like there's definitely like if you go through vegas there's definitely a homeless problem right now, like relative to when I first used to first go there. Like you look at the strip and the amount of stuff I see on the strip regularly when I'm like this is pretty graphic. So if you don't want to hear, you don't have to hear it. But last time I was there with my wife we were walking the strip and I saw a man fingering his own asshole on the strip. Like that's shit I don't, would never see anywhere. This is supposed to be like a a high quality, nice experience. The vegas strip that's what you think about and you see shit there all the time. 

01:18:38 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
That just doesn't really jive with the way that it's being marketed yeah, now feels like I could like walk into a walmart and west west palm beach if I wanted like that experience right right it's just confusing to me that these casinos have their cash cow the, the slot machines everywhere, that is, they are raking in money on those things. 

01:18:59 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
All they have to do is get people in the venue with that and then keep them in there with, I think, cheaper drinks and cheaper food, like people will stay and spend money at the casino on the casino games. 

01:19:11 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
I'm just confused why so will it price people out of line? Can they go back to getting us there with good deals, good comps? 

01:19:18 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
it's gonna die if they don't, there has to be a correction the other way. That's just the that's just the way the market works and I'm telling someone's got to take a stance where they're like fuck, we're going to risk it for a loss. 

01:19:29 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
We are of the age give or take of people who idolized Vegas. Yeah, Before, gambling was everywhere when I was 14 years old. I can't wait to go to Vegas. I love Vegas. From gambling to TV shows, to movies, it was idolized. Yes, I do not believe. Maybe I'm wrong and I'm a boomer now. I don't believe there are like 16 year olds who like can't wait to turn 21 to get to vegas, like it was when we were that age. I'm with you. I think they're. 

01:19:59 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
They could be fucked yeah, yeah I mean, I I'm only five years older than 21. I never really felt like growing up like vegas was something I kind of like had to go see. I did want to go, but it wasn't put up on that pedestal like you're explaining there. So I kind of agree with that as well. Vegas, very well known for betting. 

01:20:21
Missouri, not as well known for betting, and they've just launched two new sports books to be involved in casinos, to be involved in Missouri. Draftkings got one of the seats by no surprise really, but perhaps a little bit of surprise that the other seat was given to Circa. We have a tweet here from Ryan Butler at ButlerBets saying Breaking DraftKings and Circa have been approved to take bets in Missouri. December 1st, after earning the state's two untethered licenses, circa received the license over FanDuel, the US revenue leader. Fanduel is expected to partner with Missouri Casino or Pro Team for market access. 

01:20:56
And then Circa tweeted this in a graphic winning one of Missouri's first two untethered mobile betting licenses is a great honor. We came in as a long shot against the National Giants, but our licensure approval today proves there's room for a different kind of operator. And that comes from Derek Stevens, owner CEO of Circa Sports. So, rob, uh, what? What does this mean for the, the state of betting, and where we're at, for Circa to provide this opportunity, rather than one of the, the major conglomerates in the space, like FanDuel? 

01:21:25 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
yeah, it's, it's. It's a flippening right. I mean, if there were, if there was a calci market on on this, it would have been very, very low percentage. Yes, for circa. Like I talked to some people internally at circa and they thought it was like less than one percent chance that they were going to win this right there. They basically went in and said, yeah, we don't really have all the bells and whistles here, but we don't. We take a bet and we don't limit people no-transcript. 

01:22:19
So kind of disappointed for FanDuel to come out on the losing end to DraftKings there. But ultimately I think this is very positive that you can have an operator who comes in and is not as widely known as like the big two but says we're going to put the player first and that resonates with the state and they win one of the the mobile betting licenses right out of the gate. So I'm happy for them honestly and it's pretty ballsy of Derek to go in there and not be like the platform that he was going to quote unquote, run on. But I think we are seeing kind of like a flippening in the space now. 

01:22:57 - Kirk Evans (Host)
Yeah, I'm not sure I agree with you that it's like really overarching. I certainly thought it was surprising. I thought honestly what came to my head was like I imagine it's like a panel of like a few people who decide, yeah, maybe there was just a sharp better on the panel. Like that was kind of my thought, Good for Circa, always cheer for them. So yeah, this is cool but definitely surprising. But I'm not sure it like really means so much. 

01:23:22 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
And the final full topic that we have here comes from Mike Vivian, who we feature a lot on this show because good account to follow. I think a lot of funny stuff comes out and he took a screenshot here and posted it from Colin Wilson and Mike Vivian captioned it. What the fuck does this even mean? So, Colin Wilson, I actually what's the background of Colin Wilson? I forget. 

01:23:46 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
He posted a line for the championship game that, like Brett McMurphy picked up, but like is it just somebody who gives out like betting insight? 

01:23:54 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
I think he's an action network Part of the college football team at action. 

01:23:57 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
Okay, that's it. Action network so posted this one about Kansas State. He had it's minus two and a half and he put 1.2 units on Kansas State here for a game on August 23rd and he said project Kansas State minus six and a half, which is why he bet it at two and a half, but numbers being shaped a dip below three, we'll come back on Iowa State four, or better, prefer Iowa State with Campbell covering the Wildcats five straight. But we'll wait for Kansas State steam. Now, I'm definitely not one of the the experts on this panel, but if I make a game plus six and a half, I'm probably not going to be betting it at plus four. Um, what do you guys think? 

01:24:42 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
I I I've had a hard time really interpreting what this means because, first and foremost, you put out any sort of tweet on gambling Twitter where you you project a line that's way off the actual line, but you don't bet it and actually want to bet the opposite side. You're going to get like the the sharp contingent is going to be all over you that this has happened since the beginning of the time, so not surprised that Mike Vivian surfaced this. But is it possible that he's saying that he's projecting the line will move out that way and that's not his actual number? 

01:25:22 - Kirk Evans (Host)
I think he's betting minus two and a half, has the line at minus six and a half but is going to take back four he makes this game six and a half Don't overthink it. 

01:25:29 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
It's actually all right there. He's betting he minus six and a half, but is going to take back four, so he makes this game six and a half, don't overthink it. 

01:25:31 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
It's actually all right there. 

01:25:33 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
He's betting. He bet two and a half because he makes it six and a half, which is just crazy that he makes it six and a half and it's not even at a field goal yet Got it. So he feels like he has a big edge because he makes it six and a half and he, and he gets to bet two and a half. 

01:25:51 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
But then he also says I'm going to bet Iowa at four when it moves in that direction. Why aren't you just like hyper smashing? 

01:25:54 - Kirk Evans (Host)
two and a half if you think you have it. 

01:25:58 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
Why would you also bet four when you make it six and a? 

01:26:00 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
half. 

01:26:01 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
Yeah, I don't get that, I really don't? 

01:26:03 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
I mean, I would understand if you make the fair like three and a half and you want to try to middle the game or something like that. I completely get that. But when your number is that far out, what is the sense in middling if you, if it's opposite to what you think, the number the fair actually is, and also like projecting that it's going to go out to four and then you're going to come back like it's. 

01:26:23 - Kirk Evans (Host)
This is just. 

01:26:24 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
There's a lot of ways you can be wrong about sports betting, and this is one of those ways he's laying 20 cents on the first leg of the bet that he's going to try to middle. I don't even. 

01:26:37 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
I got to see what this is at now, because if this, let's see if this is moving, I mean in theory, if he makes it six and a half. 

01:26:45 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
I'm hoping for Colin. It gets to six. Well, I so would that mean? 

01:26:50 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
that'm a really bad. It's gotta be moving at least a little bit. Uh, it's currently. 

01:26:54 - Kirk Evans (Host)
Uh, currently three minus three well, minus two and a half, minus 120. How far off is that? 

01:27:00 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
yeah, minus three uh total of the game technically two minus 105 to like minus 110. 

01:27:06 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
Yeah, yeah, minus 110, ish. 

01:27:08 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
I will say this is an example of personal biases getting in the way when talking about a topic, because I did play blackjack with Colin Wilson in Vegas probably eight or nine years ago and we had a great time and I do really like the guy. 

01:27:19 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
I've always liked his Twitter, to be honest, but yeah. Not that I have to admit that, like it's a bad thing to admit. So I'm trying to like rationalize how it could be right, but I'm not. I'm not getting there it's just like a tough comeback from his national championship situation to end the year but long football season. 

01:27:39 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
I had a lot of chance to battle back oh, there's going to be a lot of tweets like this during football season for us to talk about too. I'm very much looking forward, but this is that this is like a classic there. That also I'm interested. I'm, I would, I'm gonna ask mike vivian on the side, like he did he find this himself or was it sent to him? Is he like, does he follow? Yeah, is this like surprised me at all? Because, because I obviously have, like I keep up with everything simon hunter does, because I dislike him so much that I want to be like I want want to be there to, to, to jump on him whenever he says something stupid. 

01:28:14 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
So I wonder if, if Colin is like I would imagine that this is a similar deal before we get into our final segment, let's hear a word about our newsletter here at the hammer. What's up guys, jacob here? If you like the content we're putting out and want to get even sharper as a better, you need to subscribe to Kirk's hammer, our free newsletter. Kirk Evans is one of the smartest people I've worked with. He breaks down the market strategy, modeling concepts and betting theory in a way that's actually digestible and, with football season around the corner, the newsletter is only getting better more insights, more value, fewer Zilbert style. Show me the records debates. Hit the link in description and get signed up. It's free and it's worth your time. 

01:28:54
Final segment, of course, is the chopping block stuff that we wanted to talk about whether we didn't think required full scale segments on the show. The first one comes from Andrew Gombas. Is that it At bets and picks MMA. What I learned from bet bash is that out of 700 attendees, at least 650 of them uh, apparently win betting mma. Truly fascinating. Did you get this same vibe, rob? 

01:29:18 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
I, I did, but I get it at every sports betting conference that I go to. It's not bet bash specific and it's not mma specific. Uh, it's funny how that works, like sports books are able to keep the lights on, but 95% of people are winning bettors. Yeah, I don't know. I found this pretty funny. I mean, I would say, at BetBash, though, like at least the vast majority of the people that are there are sharp, like they're looking to make connections with other people, like you're not going to get a rec that's typically spending, you know, 700 usd plus a flight to vegas and a hotel, um, so maybe it doesn't hit his home just as much, but, yeah, definitely, like everyone I talked. There's not a single person I talked to this week that came up to me. It's like, oh, I'm losing, like how can I get over the hump and help me win? That just doesn't happen. 

01:30:05 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
I've received some additional context from jason, who is listening in the other room. He said uh, this person actually had an mma seminar at bet bash. Yeah, that was apparently not very well received, which could have triggered well andrew gombas is a is a well-known like solid better yeah he is like the real deal. 

01:30:23 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
So I would not put anything like a slander on his name. But yeah, I don't know, I wasn't at that panel and, uh, I would imagine that, yeah, the people who are in there, even if they're in there to learn something, they're probably all in there like thinking that they're winning bettors as well they're probably all in there thinking they know more than the guy exactly. 

01:30:40 - Kirk Evans (Host)
I've never met a mover who can't get down quiet. 

01:30:43 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
I've never met an originator who's not over five percent roi yeah yeah yeah. 

01:30:47 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Yeah it's true. 

01:30:49 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
And then you have a big pay-per-view? Oh no, everyone was already home from then. 

01:30:54 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Yeah, everyone was home. Well, some people were caught in transit like plus EV analytics Poor guy. 

01:31:00 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
Speaking of, I got problems, we got problems. I'm supposed to get on a plane Thursday. Well, I'm going to end up in fucking Connector in Atlanta, fuck me. 

01:31:11 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
Speaking of that pay-per-view event and the UFC, we had a big event over the course of the weekend. Hamza Chumaev and Driscus Duplesis I hope I said those names correctly. Anyways, there was a fight. The main event, the championship bout, was a bit of a dud and it was just because Chumaev was just so incredibly dominant as a wrestler in the fight and ian mcmillan at. Ian mcbeth, who's featured on some of our forward progress watch longs for the nfl and I think we'll be back this season. 

01:31:38
For some content says I hate what the ufc has become. The strategy of making the ufc brand always stronger than a fighter's brand, mixed with the roster being dominated by boring Dagestani wrestlers, equals a product that isn't nearly as attractive to the wider audience as it once was. Now I was watching that fight with a lot of people. A bunch of them thought it was a very boring fight and didn't enjoy it, especially, you know, staying up late to watch it. But from my perspective I was just. It was just so dominant that it was just entertaining watching a guy like completely having mastered the craft and the ground game and the wrestling. I'm not even a big UFC fan. I do a little bit of martial arts training myself. I'm by no means an expert, but I just found it like he dominated like 95% of that fight. It was just incredible that there was no answer on the other side. What do you guys think? 

01:32:30 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
I think personal bias is getting in the way of the reality. So I completely agree with ian. I don't watch the ufc anymore. I used to watch a ton of ufc. I found the fights a lot more interesting when the fighters weren't as well-rounded like when I was growing up. Everyone kind of like specialized in in one type of form. Now everybody kind of knows everything. I personally think that there are more boring fights nowadays than there used to be back in the day. But with that said, like the UFC is worth more than it ever has been. It is. The audience is by far the largest that it ever has been. Revenue is as big as it ever has been. So like I don't agree that this isn't as attractive to the wider audience. I think it is maybe like shunned out existing fans from earlier, but not necessarily like am I missing something? 

01:33:23 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
is there an nfl player whose brand is bigger than the shield? No I'm just curious definitely not. 

01:33:31 - Kirk Evans (Host)
No, I guess what are we talking about? 

01:33:32 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
yeah, I mean yes, and maybe in baseball you could say otani's bigger than baseball and, like I think, once lebron and steph are gone, I don't think I think in basketball there's no one bigger than than the crest. I think the other parts of the complaint aren't without merit, but I like the fact that the brand of the league, this thing, started like in our lifetime but that's a that's so impressive. 

01:34:02 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
But isn't this also like really popular just in sports, with fans who were like diehards for a long time and then the sport fundamentally changes? Right? It's like I listened to like my dad and his friends talk about football and it's like all this passing, like they you know they don't run the ball anymore like it used to be, like the smash mouth football back in the day. It's like anytime there's an evolution from what you're used to when you were the biggest fan. That doesn't that I don't want to say any time, but doesn't that play into it? 

01:34:29 - Kirk Evans (Host)
I don't disagree with that. But I think the ufc is a bit different, because I actually do think it's like. It is a pretty like. People from before will be like oh, the nba was way better than in the 90s. You watch the clips and you're like this obviously wasn't way better. These players were so much worse, yeah but, the ufc? 

01:34:48 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
no man we, we wanted Charles Oakley, popping from 16 feet, to be able to hit like a jumper. Yeah, I mean. 

01:34:54 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
God forbid you didn't take someone out coming down the lane and try to end their career. It's like is that what's made basketball popular? 

01:35:02 - Kirk Evans (Host)
But obviously the UFC fighters are way better now. But being better is kind of a lot of that wrestling dominating on the ground, khabib style I think. 

01:35:10
But yeah, I think a small problem with the UFC. I would agree with you guys. It's still growing, it's still massive. It's just like a lot of the fans aren't like actually fans of the sport, like basketball fans, football fans, hockey fans Typically they played the sport growing up. They did that versus UFC fans. It's much more like I want to see people do crazy things and get punched in the face and get knocked out and like if that's not kind of the best strategy. People complain about the fights and they're like oh, these fights are boring Versus. It's kind of like that's the best way to win. So what are you supposed to do? 

01:35:53 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
I mean, the sport exists on Saturday night at midnight when you're supposed to just be wasted with your buddies watching the fight. Yeah, a golf hardo is like signing up for espn plus to watch thursday coverage of something. And then is also there when the casuals are tuning in sunday at dinner. Um, but you try like yes, in tennis guys are bigger than the sport. Yes, in golf guys have gotten, uh, even today, like post tiger. You could argue, certain guys, maybe bryson or someone, but yeah, scotty's boring, but I don't know. I just I feel like there's two conversations in the end tweet. I agree with one of them. 

01:36:20 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
I didn't really yeah, I'm in the exact same boat. 

01:36:23 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
Next comment comes from at boston trudeau uh says would love a circle back seven or even a full circles off episode about trying to build an odd board product with access to dozens of APIs, the ability to pull as close to real-time autonomy sources and balancing the cost of that first price to get most users slash revenue. So this comes from, originally a tweet from Joseph, I don't know, buckdahl. Yeah sure. At 12. Experts says Pinnacle have confirmed that unfortunately, due to commercial reasons, our real-time API is no longer publicly available. We're making a delayed version of the API available to certain commercial partners Now. Unfortunately it won't be a full segment nor a full Circles Up episode, but it will feature in the chopping block. So let's get your thoughts on this, rob, having experience in this. 

01:37:10 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Yeah, no, I would just say that it's pretty. It's pretty challenging to do this Because, candidly, there are many, many ways to get access to APIs and things that I'm just not comfortable talking about publicly or they would reveal like a competitive edge versus other odd screens. Like there is a lot of competition in the odd screen space nowadays, way more than when it was just basically exclusively Don Best, and everybody has their own ways of sourcing different feeds. So I understand that this would be interesting and certainly, if I wasn't involved in the space, I'd be very interested in hearing about this. But it is incredibly challenging for me to divulge a lot of that information. So I could potentially think of a way to get as much valuable information across as I could. Maybe would consider that for like a smaller educational piece in the future. But yeah, there's just a lot at play here where it's um, um, it's incredibly complex and a lot of, a lot of what goes on behind the scenes I I wouldn't be super comfortable talking about all right, makes sense. 

01:38:18 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
Uh, we'll go to this one from phil mickelson, who said here's a hot take. Does scotty win in 2025, before the rider cup? I don't think so. This is from. I should have put the date in the screenshot. I believe it's from mid-march of 2025. Um, jeff, how do we feel about this one? This is an all-timer, isn't it? 

01:38:38 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
yeah, I just sent that to you to just make sure it was in the file for, like, best of the year. There's just. I mean, what an this tweet is, art I can get in the Louvre type of thing. This is like no joke when we're doing this thing of Christmas and there's like a three minute short of me and my tweets of the year. It's probably this and T-Bone with his Rolex after flipping the car that is in the Hall of Fame. To me that is like the pantheon. What about? 

01:39:09 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
T-B-bones most recent tweet of warning people that there was police checking for. Uh like pulling people over, it's like ride. Remember when they had a ride in ontario where they pull you over, smell your breath. You, just you sending out a warning to everyone and like driving, like a windy mountain road jesus christ. 

01:39:27 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
Um, that's yeah that. This tweet is like the upper crust of this game. 

01:39:33 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
How many wins does he have this year so far? 

01:39:36 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
I don't know how many Scottie has off the top of my head he started late because he had the hand injury, he wasn't winning early. 

01:39:40 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
We had six, jeez. It's like two majors, maybe three or four elevateds and a regular. So yeah, we're at six or so Literally plus 200 to win the next tournament. I mean, at least the next one's, only got 30 guys. 

01:39:57 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Yeah, I hate to say this, but I actually still really like Phil Mickelson. Yeah, you wish he was still around. 

01:40:05 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
Yeah, I do. The tour misses, the PGA Tour misses him. And I say this in like a complimentary term, not the derogatory way this term would be said. He's like a mask, like he would be such a good mascot for golf, for the pga tour yeah like just around playing being filled good energy? Yeah, I don't mean like putting on a costume, singing and dancing, but just the mere presence of him would in some ways do what like a mascot does at the ball game. 

01:40:34 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
The next one comes from at round robin 42. Isaac, who has appeared on this show on a few occasions, said genuinely Sorry. Genuinely think if you're betting for fun, you should reserve around 10 percent of what you would bet on your team slash player for if they go down, so you could double down at a better price without chasing beyond your means. Now that's kind of the crux of this conversation and interested in your thoughts, but I did enjoy the replies here. Fluff responded is this responsible gambling? And Isaac said sorry, meant to see reserve another 10% for when the opponent retires. So good, little clap back there. But what do you guys think on this one Saving 10% of what you were going to bet just to double down and get a better price? 

01:41:20
This is more recreational. 

01:41:21 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Is he advertising like a fractional Martingale type of situation? 

01:41:26 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
I think he's just saying save a little. 

01:41:27 - Kirk Evans (Host)
And if your team gives up the first touchdown, like don't be afraid to get in again at the bigger number instead of betting 100, yeah, 90, and then if your team goes down maybe about five, and then if your team goes down more about five, it's just like no one like it's. So it's kind of so antithetical to betting of. Like people are kind of degenerates and like betting and like putting their mind to the idea that a casual better is gonna be like I'm gonna save 10 of my bet no, I can bet it, but also the wreck. 

01:41:56 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
The wreck doesn't. The wreck thinks they're so much smarter than they are that they don't think that their bet is going to be down 14, nothing yes but, like that's also part of it I'm not saving for a scenario that could never happen love this idea in principle. 

01:42:11 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
By the way, I play poker next to isaac. This week had an absolute blast love hanging out with him. He also took us to the sphere to see uh that was good from birth was fucking. I don't know if you've been to sphere before I've heard only incredible yeah first 10 minutes I was like what I would have got myself into. This looks like an imax screen, and then it then shit hit yeah, got very real. 

01:42:30 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
I remember the first 10 minutes. We were like what the fuck did it bring us? 

01:42:33 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
to okay, so reserve 10 of what you bet on your player team. If they go down, you can double down at a better price. I've seen my friends go through this exact same experience before. The problem is, when your team is start, the team that you bet on starts getting their asses handed to them in the early going. It's actually incredibly difficult for you to pull the trigger on adding more to them. So in theory, sure, if you can get that out of your head, I wouldn't do it. I'm just going to place 100% of my bet on it pregame. But try pulling the trigger when your team looks like an absolute fucking disaster in the first half of the first quarter of an NFL game. It's just not happening. 

01:43:14 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
I will say in golf I like to really detach on Thursdays because I don't need to sweat over five footers. But I actually don't think like if Scottie's going out in the morning wave and I got a guy in the afternoon wave that I'm going to bet on and I got a guy in the afternoon wave that I'm going to bet on, maybe say like, if those guys score what they're going to score, everyone's odds who haven't hit a ball yet will just go up. Right, that's true. So there are like some little things that like maybe. But again, no rec is disciplined enough to do this efficiently. They'd overbet, underbet, they'd just probably create a situation. 

01:43:52 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
But isaac's the best you might be moving from uh sophisticated square into like mild sharp territory no, no no, some of some of the you could see some of my pendants I'm also not the type to just re-bet, like if my bet's going poorly. 

01:44:06 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
I think the last thing I want to do, exactly, exactly so hard and then if I bet on a team and they going poorly, I think the last thing I want to do exactly, exactly. 

01:44:10 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
And then if I bet on a team and they're winning, I'd feel like shit. Why did I not just bet 100 it? 

01:44:15 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
depends on the personality. Like we all have that one friend that, no matter what, is not giving up on his pre-game well, I mean no matter what? Just wait and see, just wait, like they're coming back, that I have a friend, like that. But then there's like others that immediately are reacting to like the first hit, the first two hits in the game are singles for the other team in a baseball game and they're freaking out. They're like I'm on the wrong side, yeah, you know, whatever. So it's really challenging. 

01:44:40 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
Well, and also just from from talking to isaac, hanging out with him and seeing his twitter like, isaac is a guy who will re-bet at like a lot. Like, if this guy goes down a set like a tennis, better, yeah, who will re-bet a lot? If this guy goes down a set like a tennis, better he'll re-bet. They're down two sets, he'll re-bet, and he often re-bets. So maybe it comes from that sort of thought process as well, but I would also start to see a recreational better doing this. Then we have I think this is the last one that we have on the show today. This comes from at DK double underscore DFS Very DK, double underscore DFS. Very much known right now on Twitter for clowning on these. What people would consider scam touts potentially people who are misleading their audience in what they're selling in terms of the sports betting space. He said Vic, who is a widely known pig seller. Vic posted extremely minus EV parlay yesterday. He missed two legs but he's victory lapping watered down versions that he didn't play. So a watered down version of a parlay, if anybody doesn't know, is when, let's say, you have like a seven leg parlay and five legs hit, you can just advertise Well, if you had played these five legs of the seven that I gave you, you would have had a winning bet. So obviously complete lunacy to even do that. 

01:45:51
And then this from at George on tap, who says man I've commented on your post so many times start giving out value because you're good at betting and stop counting other people's money. It's gross, to be honest. You're actually so good at this, why worry about everyone else? It's like you were an NBA player and getting buckets going on social media all day, bitch about some other guys. Some other plays a few percentage and that's why he averages more points per game than you. Just work, bro. And the response from dk is it's because I hate grifters, scammers. I am one of the few people that will call these guys out on their bs and I kind of uh, just from doing this show, I kind of resonated with what he's saying here, like, yeah, kind of what we do on this show I wouldn't say there's a lot of necessarily like, like betting, educational stuff that provide I think it's it's education on the way. We say this is bad, don't do this, don't follow this. But I kind of resonate with it with a little bit. What do you guys think? 

01:46:42 - Kirk Evans (Host)
yeah, I think I hate that guy's response of like like such a hater like like you're just looking at other people's pockets Like I. 

01:46:52
I see that a lot on Twitter. Like I think it's so stupid. I wish there were more people who just were willing to consistently call out people who are grifting and scamming. Like I get what DK saying I hate grifters and scammers. I also think he probably has some personal incentive. He probably gets clicks on this stuff. He probably grows his Twitter brand by doing it. It probably like feels good and is funny to tweet that. So I don't think he only does it for that reason. But like people are like oh, you're like, you're just a hater. 

01:47:19 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Like I think those tweets are so dumb, so I would say that years ago, my Twitter account was probably very similar to this Twitter account. I would be the one that would go after people and, for the most part, my audience, definitely ate it up and that, felt, made me feel good about myself and maybe want to keep doing it. And I would get some comments every now and then of like oh, this is so cringe, just like focus on yourself. And I would just be like, well, that's not who I am, it's not. I think more people should call out scammers or grifters in the space. If you go back one slide here, jacob, to like this guy's comparison of like it's like if you were an NBA player and getting buckets going on social media all day bitching about some other player's field goal percentage. It's not like that at all. 

01:48:05
Like some other player. Missing buckets in the NBA is not affecting other people's livelihood, like they're not taking advantage of innocent, unsuspecting people. It's not even a similar comparison, it's apples to oranges. With that said, the reason I've kind of dialed it back a little bit is, you know, twofold. But for one, I've often wondered about giving these people more visibility and whether that's actually a good thing or a bad thing, because you run a really like you're on a very slippery slope when you now start having look at 53K impressions on this tweet, right, like maybe 52,000 of these people view it and be like, ah, this guy's a clown, but maybe 1,000 remember that guy's name or go check him out or do their own due diligence or something and form a different conclusion. So that's where I think it's challenging. 

01:48:56
I do respect the people who have the wherewithal or smart enough, like this DKDFS guy, to go after the con artists in the space, but I do think that that could potentially be doing damage space, but I do think that that could potentially be doing damage. And also, you have to be willing to like fight the battles, because some of these guys come back at you and their following comes back at you and now you are just wasting time arguing with people on the internet, so there's that point of it as well, but I honestly really enjoy this account. Dk underscore dfs. If mr peanut better was in my god tier, I put this guy in the A tier. I really like that. He keeps up with this stuff and he's willing to call out a lot of the bullshit in the space because, frankly, everybody wants to play fucking kumbaya with one another or sing kumbaya and sometimes, you know, just being real resonates with people and this resonates a lot with me. 

01:49:50 - Jacob Gramegna (Host)
I think that's the perfect way to end it off. We're going to keep it real with you right here on the Circles Off channel, with content like Circle Back and plenty of other content on the way. Some great stuff was recorded at BetFast and some other great content is in the pipeline. You need to make sure that you are subscribed to this channel. We're getting on the road to 20,000 subscribers. You that you are subscribed to this channel. We're getting on the road to 20,000 subscribers. You can help us get there. Make sure you drop a like if you enjoyed as well, rate, review five stars if you're listening in audio form and before you go, comment something down below, let us know what you like, let us know what you didn't like and just give your thoughts. We always go through every comment. We very much value your feedback. We'll see you again next time.