The Shedeur Sanders Propaganda Has Gone Too Far.. | Presented by Kalshi

00:00 - Jacob Gramenga (Host)
Here's what you can look forward to in today's episode of Circle Back. 

00:03 - Kirk Evans (Host)
I would say I'm the resident expert on this topic here, because this is an average Tuesday in the WNBA. 

00:09 - Jacob Gramenga (Host)
Okay, kevin Stefani can give Dylan Gabriel easy short routes with max protection and then give Shadur Sanders bull plays with an OL that looks like they just ate a gang of Little. 

00:20 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Debbies. This guy is holding a handwritten piece of paper with prices written on it, like he's running a lemonade stand that might be the dumbest take in the history of the show. 

00:31 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
I'd like I was shaking. I was shaking in my tomb. 

00:34 - Jacob Gramenga (Host)
Getting some rest in daytona beach like seeing some of the criticisms disclaimer the content presented in this show is intended for entertainment purposes only. All opinions expressed are those of the host and do not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of any individuals or organizations mentioned. Statements made about public figures or entities are based on publicly available information and are not intended to harm or defame any person or business. This show relies on fair use of social media posts, which are presented in good faith for the purpose of commentary and criticism. Viewers and listeners are advised to form their own opinions. 

01:21
It's Circle Back here on the Circles Off channel. It's part of the Hammerbag Network and it's presented by CalSheet. This is the show where we uncover the latest and trending stories from gambling, twitter and sometimes the sports world as a whole. We're going to dial in first of all, on Shador Sanders and the conversations going on around him after preseason, but a whole host of topics you do not want to miss throughout the show today, so make sure you stay tuned until the very end. I am your host on Circleback, jacob Grimenia. I'm the host on this show and maybe some other shows as well in the Hammer Bank Network, but I'm also a producer with the network. Our CEO is here as always, rob Pizzola. Professional sports better. In the middle chair we have Kirk Evans. Seasoned NBA better getting ready for a new NBA season coming in a couple of months. 

02:13
And then on the left, we have Jeff Feinberg, chargers super fan, tommy Fleetwood super fan and had the pleasure of attending Daytona this week for a race in NASCAR. How did that go? 

02:24 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
Oh, that was awesome Like right up in there. 

02:28 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
I loved it. I hope you don't like find this offensive in any way, but you just like give off NASCAR vibes Like I see pictures of you at the track and it's like, I feel like you've been there your whole life. 

02:40 - Jacob Gramenga (Host)
You're at home there. 

02:46 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
Between NASCAR and I went to my first ever buckies. It was an incredible weekend. Topped it off with a, a tommy win, so I'm feeling great, yeah, football college football is back now as well. 

02:55 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Week zero obviously jason cooper's favorite week of the sporting calendar just passed this week as well. 

03:01
Uh, already had like a a host of dumb things happening there with, like stanford hawaii, uh, you know, monumental upset, according to the announcers, when the two and a half point favorite wins the game. Um, now I'm, I'm stoked for football to be back like this is. This is the time of year where I'm, you know, I'm, I get to it. I'm like, ah, summer's coming to an end. But once you actually get that taste of football a little bit, and I'm all in ready to go. 

03:29 - Jacob Gramenga (Host)
Well, a lot of people are ready to go for the football season, but maybe somebody who's not quite ready to take on the full reins of the NFL is Shadurah Sanders, at least maybe in the opinion of Browns head coach, kevin Stefanski. But a lot of people have had big issues with how Shadurah Sanders has been treated in preseason. Mike Renner, at Mike Renner underscore, posted four screenshots on Twitter. He said we are approaching levels of takes unseen since Tim Tebow In reference to I would call it the propaganda around Shadur Sanders and his game. The first one there's a few of these, so bear with me comes from Robert Little, bso at BSO sports analyst in a way it says it appears to me, it appears to me coach didn't want Shadur to go in the game because he didn't want to hear all the convo about Shadur leading a great two minute drill. Now who knows if he would have or not. But coach didn't want to take the chance, wanted the last memory of him looking bad, so when they bury him it would look justified. That's shady and untrustworthy behavior, so they should just let him go. This one comes from Josina Anderson with the same at another sports analyst will say says Kevin Stefanski was way too diplomatic today with how he handled his QB evaluation as far as what was necessary and what wasn't. The head coach was also. The head coach has to also be cognizant of actions that build his guys up. First, introducing more mental static than necessary. Second, unless Shader Sanders, when his oblique was injured, was wincing just to walk, he should have played at least one to two series last week versus the Eagles in their second preseason game. Yes, despite the risk, he'd have plenty of time to heal because the Browns already knew Shadur Sanders wasn't going to be named starter. Given Sanders' limited reps in practice by comparison to the other QBs, he needed the second PG reps to maintain rhythm and carry over from his preseason debut. 

05:26
What are the Browns gaining in their evaluation of Shadur Sanders by how they rolled out the QB order today? A couple more. One from Jerome Anton, just a user on Twitter who wanted to voice their opinion. It says so. Kevin Stefank can give Dylan Gabriel easy short routes with max protection and then give Shadur Sanders bullshit plays with an OL that looks like they just ate a gang of Little Debbies. Fuck you Browns, trade Shadur. And the last one before we hear from our panel here Jamie M, another Twitter user, says so. The O-line suddenly doesn't know how to hold up once Shadur starts playing, but Dylan Gabriel has all day to dance in the pocket. I mean tweets like this, guys. Guys, it really does make you think, rob. Uh, are the browns purposely sabotaging shadur sanders preseason so he looks bad and they could justify not starting him? 

06:15 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
so this whole discourse of um, like a conspiracy theory of the browns sabotaging shadadur Sanders, is so unbelievably stupid that it makes me question my faith in humanity. Like seriously, like we've gotten to. We know this having watched pro sports and especially the NFL. The NFL we've talked about this on the show before. Teams will do whatever they can to gain a competitive advantage, to gain an edge right. They will literally fake injury reports, spy on practices, deflate football, whatever they can do. 

06:53 - Jacob Gramenga (Host)
They'll sign criminals. Anybody will get signed to help them win football games. 

06:58 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
To gain an advantage. So this whole theory that they are sabotaging a player which they used actual capital to draft it was a fifth round pick which they used actual capital to draft. They used it was a fifth round pick, but they used a pick to draft him is so incredibly dumb. Like sometimes, it just is what it is. It's a quarterback that's lower on the depth chart. So who is going to play with more backups in preseason? Who doesn't really have pocket presence, took a lot of sacks and played poorly. That's it. 

07:31
Well, he took sacks because they put out a bad O-line, but every quarterback in the league in some capacity is going to play with third and fourth string O-line in preseason and we don't see people take five sacks on 11 dropbacks. 

07:43
It doesn't happen. 

07:44
But what bothers me the most about this whole situation is actually all these people who are standing for shidr sanders are kind of indirectly going to be the downfall of him as a player because he is going to get the colin kaepernick treatment in the nfl in the sense that no team wants to deal with the circus act that is going to come with him so every time he plays bad. 

08:08
If there's going to be a bunch of people online who are mad at the organization, mad at the two-time coach of the year, kevin Stefanski, for the way that he rolled out his preseason, players like that is going to become a circus act that teams just are not going to be want to be involved in. So I find it funny in a sense that all these people are coming to his defense and causing, like this, huge uproar for something that is is a zero if it's any other player in the league and I mean I I see this down the line being a situation where he might get blacklisted from the league just because teams don't want to deal with the insanity that comes with them. 

08:47 - Kirk Evans (Host)
I would say I'm the resident expert on this topic here, because this is an average Tuesday in the WNBA. Okay, there is nothing that WNBA fandom loves more than a ridiculous conspiracy on reffing coaching usage. You know the media bias, so this is really like. This is lower level stuff for the wnba. You'll see way crazier conspiracies out there, but it's a bit troubling that it is, uh, now coming to the nfl. But yeah, I think that's a great point by you that this, like the reason he fell, at least somewhat, is because of the circus, and this is the circus coming to be exactly, yeah obviously the this is just completely ludicrous that the o-line started playing bad because shador was in. 

09:35
You know, stefanski gave dylan gabriel easy routes by shador heart. 

09:41 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
But they drafted dylan gabriel higher than shadur sanders, so naturally he's going to get to play with better players in the preseason, but but that uh accusation is that they gave dylan gabriel easy route yeah stefanski was giving shadur the harder routes to make him look bad. 

09:57 - Kirk Evans (Host)
It's just frankly ridiculous and like I've gotten to the point since following the w, that like this just rolls off my back, easy to ignore, but yeah, obviously just complete. 

10:08 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
The fact that people truly believe this is pretty unbelievable it must have been a light week of nothing, because I'm embarrassed how much time you spoke about it. I truly am. I spent the weekend in seedy daytona beach strip clubs, so I don't know anything that happened. I saw on the internet he played bad. I'll get out on this. Who gives a fuck what the internet says? But josina and robert should be better. Yeah, like people on the internet are always going to say crazy things, the stuff that's going to hurt him is not crazy people on the internet. Crazy people on the internet think justin herbert's like the 20th best quarterback in the league. Well, he is sure you got him ranked fifth, fifth, six, six. 

10:49
I saw you look at your graphic you know, you put out a fucking graphic for the network you're right, don't go back now. 

10:56 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
No, no, I'm not backtracking. 

10:57 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
I I debated and I think you drafted him in our league well, of course, but I, I, when we got doesn't matter. I'm just saying, anyhow, my bench quarterback, my point being is crazies on the internet are going to say what they want to say. It only becomes the tebow circus into the locker room when it's like people with like some levels of credibility, like a josina anderson yes, agreed, 100. 

11:21 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
I mean, this is just like a sad reflection of not only sports but reality too nowadays, with with the conspiracy theory stuff like they're very often, is just a very rational explanation for why something happened and we talked about this when chador sanders fell in the draft which was, I mean, teams are sending scouts to watch this guy practicing not even practicing. So, yeah, some people are like he's not even practicing. 

11:44 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
So, yeah, some people are like, well, he's not practicing, he's also distracting other players from practicing, which is worse than not practicing. 

11:52 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Which is a very rational situation. Which was a true, confirmed story. Yes, so he falls. And now, like you have a fifth round pick, you have where's Dylan Gabriel? Drafted Second round, second or? 

12:03 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
third, not second, not second. 

12:05 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Third he was drafted before Shadur Sand For sure. And it's like, yeah, he was 94th overall, yeah, third round, so logically he's going to get better reps in preseason. I mean, all of this is just very rational, straight line thinking. Just use your brain. But you're right, jeffff, it's a good point. It's like it's when the people that have the following actually get involved and like throw gasoline on the fire, it becomes a bigger story. I actually feel really bad for the guy, honestly. I really do, because it's headed down a path where it's just it's going to be such a distraction for any team involved and it's not, it's not really his fault, but I I foresee an outcome where, unfortunately, he's banished to the bench or not even a roster at some point in the league because of just the sideshow let me go through the rest of the tweets that we have here. 

12:55 - Jacob Gramenga (Host)
I mean, for me, part of the confusion on these tweets. Like jerome in the bottom right there says fuck you browns trade, as if, like every team in the nfl, didn't pass on him four to five times the draft now all of a sudden. 

13:08
Yeah, they're all gonna want to trade for him now, like, if you think of the browns made him available, there'd be anybody trying to take a bite at that. I don't think so. Uh, jerome also went on to say dylan gabriel played with the ones and twos. They put shidr in with the threes and fours. Stefanski got exactly what he wanted. He wanted to make Dylan look good and Shadur look bad. Yeah, I don't think it's ridiculous to want your higher drafted QB in better situations, like you said there, but they're just gonna let them play and evaluate like it's not about making like again. 

13:36 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
They used draft capital on a player. They didn't pick him in the fifth round, just to throw him out in preseason to make him look bad like. That would be idiot, the most idiotic thing a team would do. 

13:48 - Jacob Gramenga (Host)
Draft picks are so valuable nowadays like no one would do that just you like use your brain when I like evaluate, like takes like this in sports. I try to imagine how people came to this sort of conclusion, like what path they went down to get here and for stuff like this. 

14:05 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
There's just no logical explanation for it casual fans would be shocked uh, and even fans that seem to like you think no football if you said that the amount of players they would give you for a fifth round pick yeah, like the talent that you would see. Like, um, if someone said we have a fifth round pick, we're looking for a player right the high end level, quality player in the public consensus that could be gotten for that fifth round pick I know uh it's, it's I. 

14:37 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
I think this is a situation where there was a quarterback in mock drafts that was mocked in the first round. You know, you look at consensus draft boards you see on like top 30 he dropped. 

14:48 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
People could not fathom how that happened and now it's extended into like if he was mocked in the third, though in those early mocks there'd be crazy people on the internet saying, well, how is he being mocked in the third? 

14:59 - Kirk Evans (Host)
he should be being mocked yeah higher, so it would never yeah yeah, I agree with that for sure, like one. I don't even think it was that he was mocked high I think that's part of it, but just the fact that he was the, like, most known player in the draft and then also, since that conspiracy happens now, it just like funnels into more of this. So, yeah, it's just all stupid. I agree. 

15:22 - Jacob Gramenga (Host)
A couple more tweets to read off here. First of all, jake Schwanitz says Can't wait to see this dude's face with a fired on a graphic in five months. This is in response to Kevin Stefanski talk about why Shudder Sanders didn't lead the two-minute drill at the end of the game. And then maybe the tweet I believe has the most clarity out of all, this comes from Lance Zerline. Zerline Says Today I found believe has the most clarity out of all. This comes from lance. Uh, zero line. Zero line says today I found out that in pre-season football a play caller will call the good plays for one quarterback but save the bad plays for another quarterback in the same game. Never stop learning. So we'll just have to see who is a brown starting quarterback. Is it joe flacco? Going into the season, it'll be picket when he's healthy. 

16:02 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
But yeah, stop learning. I like that one. I'm going to start using that as a hashtag at the end of my tweets. 

16:08 - Jacob Gramenga (Host)
That is good. 

16:09 - Kirk Evans (Host)
Was that a serious tweet or sarcastic, sarcastic. 

16:14 - Jacob Gramenga (Host)
He's a real reporter. 

16:17 - Kirk Evans (Host)
He's a real person with a brain. 

16:20 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
He worked at Sports Illustrated when Sports Illustrated was actually a real thing, I'm glad. 

16:27 - Kirk Evans (Host)
A real reporter. I love how. 

16:28 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Jeff can chart out where media members worked over the course of their entire lives. Good memory like that. 

16:33 - Jacob Gramenga (Host)
There should be like what's that game, the Grid, the one you play when you try to name obscure football players. There should be one for media members. 

16:40 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
I gave up on that after Eric Eager, just like, absolutely used to cook us non-stop, was absurd. I can't do the yeah grid for media members. 

16:48 - Jacob Gramenga (Host)
Jeff, that'd be a good one cbs espn overlap you'd have, like the real media members, not the people with no journalistic integrity that work at the hammer betting network, apparently. Um, before we go to our next topic, if you're enjoying this show so far, please make sure you do smash that like button. Also, make sure you're subscribed to the channel to help us unroll to 20 000 subs. We have circle back content every tuesday and friday and we're going to sprinkle in some extra content in between as well. You won't want to miss out on any of that, and get in the comments down below with your thoughts on shador sanders and what you expect from him in his rookie season. 

17:21
All right, we're going to dive into the NFL market as a whole. We're going to dive into the calci market associated with the Super Bowl champion. Now, the favorites here are Baltimore at 13%, philadelphia at 13%, buffalo 12%, kansas at 12%. Just for Jeff, I see the Chargers at 4%. I think they're just outside of the top 10. I think I see them or they're just inside of the top 10. I think I see them or they're just inside. They're not winning shit. 

17:47 - Kirk Evans (Host)
Anyways around 10. 

17:48 - Jacob Gramenga (Host)
I think they do. I just wanted to get the sense as we're getting ready for the football season. Where do you guys think teams will end up this season? Jeff, who would you make as the team to beat to go in the Super Bowl this year? 

18:00 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
I don't have a single future on a team to win the Super Bowl. I got some futures Me too. 

18:05 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
I know you got the Vikings because you wrote it in Kirk's Hammer. 

18:07 - Kirk Evans (Host)
Yeah, exactly, I like the Vikings. I think Buffalo is very overrated. I have some Atlanta. 

18:13 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
I like Atlanta. 

18:14 - Kirk Evans (Host)
I have some Niners Injuries haven't been great but I still like them. Yeah, I think. 

18:27 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
Detroit is a team I'd fade this year. 

18:28 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Baltimore I like a lot Philadelphia. I like a lot Detroit fade or what, yeah, detroit fade. Don't say that out loud the fan base might be. They've already been after me in the preseason. It's funny, jacob, when he was reading about, he talked about the percentage likelihood of them winning. I get very fixated on the no prices now because a lot of the sports books that we traditionally bet at would have like one-way markets right, couldn't really bet not to win the Super Bowl, and a lot of these, candidly, are like bridge jumpers right, you know, it's For sure. But there are certain teams where I quite like the no price, like Cincinnati to me. I like the no on Cincinnati. I don't think that they have anywhere near the caliber of defense that could win a super bowl and and there's like a non-zero chance that they trade trey hendrickson, still, it's like 15 likelihood in markets right now. Right. So that to me is one that I like. You know, jeff, I don't. I don't really like the chargers and no chance in terms of I don't know about no chance. 

19:23 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
But like, yeah, they might be fine, they're not going to be embarrassing, but their ceiling, no fucking way. 

19:29 - Kirk Evans (Host)
I actually don't agree with you guys. 

19:32 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
You can put air in my tires after the show. 

19:35 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
I like the Chargers, yeah, I mean so that naturally it's weird for me now. But with the emergence of the prediction markets like Kalshi, I kind now. But I, with the emergence of the of the prediction markets like kalshi, I kind of focus on the nose. I'm just waiting for one to blow up in my face at some point hasn't happened yet like uh fozen who had like deleted his oh yeah his twitter account and his telegram he's not even back, yet it's gone he ceases to exist. 

19:58
At this point I need to get to the bottom of what happened to him, but I I think the cincinnati price is short you have any investigative journalists in the uh? 

20:06 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
well, no, no journalistic integrity. 

20:07 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Second time we're going to mention it on the show today. I'm sure it'll come up again. 

20:11 - Jacob Gramenga (Host)
No journalistic integrity here at the hammer I'll tell you where there's a lot of integrity and that's in betting with calci. You can bet on calci by signing up with a qr code that is on screen right now or at any point throughout the video or the audio format. You can go to the link in the description. Sign up to cal. She get involved with these great markets where, uh, it's always going to be, or very consistently at the very least, two-way markets like this, where you understand completely the biggest associate with the market and a lot of volume in it 32 million dollars of volume in this super bowl market and the season has not even begun as of yet again, sign up, sign up to Cal State and support this show in the process. And we've talked a lot about the NFL today and NFL's around the corner, obviously the biggest sport that we cover here at the Hammer. So let's hand it over to the CEO, rob. Tell us about what's coming to the Hammer in terms of NFL content, at least in the coming weeks and throughout the season. 

21:00 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Yeah, so this drops on Tuesday at 8 am today. Yeah, so this drops on Tuesday at 8 am today. For those who are watching and listening, 4 pm Eastern Time, live over on the Hammer HQ, we have Jason Cooper hosting a futures extravaganza for the year. Now, it's not completely limited to NFL. There's going to be some other futures there as well, but for those who watch the Super Bowl props extravaganza every year, it'll kind of be similar to that where we just got creator after creator coming on and giving their favorite future for the year. So that's 4 pm eastern time live over on the hammer hq. If you're not subbed to that channel yet, make sure you do sub. 

21:33
We got some grp content dropping there soon, uh, with jeff and jason, and we also got a new show with jason that is premiering on friday, september 5th, which is the hammer daily. It's going to be noon Eastern time every day, a one hour show, and it's betting picks across every single league possible, including WNBA, nascar, whatever it may be. So check that out. And then we also have our Forward Progress season preview. That's live Thursday, 5 pm Eastern time. Myself, g-stack, george and Suma we're going team by team, giving our thoughts and outlook on every single team. It's gonna be a two-hour special and that's over on Forward Progress on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts as well. You can listen to that after the fact. 5 pm Eastern time on Thursday. So this week, a couple big pieces of content coming your way. 

22:29 - Jacob Gramenga (Host)
So that's the the hammer, our main channel, which I'll have the link for in the description. So go to youtube as well. As for forward progress, our nfl content division at the hammer betting network. But we're sticking with the nfl topics on the show today and we're going back over to grp wins. Now we've made a lot of grp as of late, but particularly this summer. 

22:41
We talked a lot about his pick selling that is going to start taking place this season. I mean, at least we thought it was going to be pick selling. But you're not paying for picks. You're paying to see which teams he's bet on and based on what day of the week. You want to know what team he's bet on because according to GRP you bet teams, not numbers. There's a certain price associated with what day of the week you're allowed to see what teams he is betting on. So he had this was from August 23rd, 1111 am, eastern Time. Make a wish. He showcased his business model. Send DM. That's what it says on the piece of paper he is holding up to the camera. The cost per pick each week is a hundred dollars for monday, ninety dollars for tuesday, and so on all the way down to saturday, sunday, where it's fifty dollars and then forty dollars and you send him a dm and he wants you to send a check in the mail in order to pay for these picks. It was going to be like western union transactions. Now it's sending checks in the mail. He doesn't want to deal with the Venmos, the cash ads, because of hacking, hacking His words, not mine. He's concerned about that. 

23:48
Vanzack at Covers. Vanzack said on this one George, most of the videos land somewhere between in on the joke and delusional. This is off the charts delusional. But the saga did not end there because a day later, august 24th, 38 pm uh, well, actually that was a quote, but it was august 24th he decided to change the prices of the picks and he decided to make it instead uh, this was a price for this is, this is price for the season he was looking for here. 

24:18
On sunday you can get the picks for 500 and you get them every sund $500. But if you want to know in advance on Tuesday, you can pay $1,000 to get the picks on the Tuesday. Now he said specifically in this video I don't know if this is true, one of the videos he said sportsbooks may choose to pay that $1,000 for Tuesday, because they want to know what he's betting so that they can change the line and move the line. So be aware of that. But a day later the update is he lowered his prices, for he said I've lowered the price of seeing what teams I bet on, and then I thought we were all done. But just before we started recording uh 11 04 am. August 25th that is the monday, so it'd been yesterday. If you're watching this on the tuesday I decided to change the prices again. You can now pay sunday five hundred dollars, tuesday it's nine hundred dollars and thursday seven hundred dollars, so that's the day of the week you get to see what teams he bet on. 

25:13 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
So there is the third update from grp wins the bottom line is so funny you're paying to find out my uh bets, the bets I made. I can't guarantee my picks will win. Be winners. Be winners Will be winners. 

25:28 - Jacob Gramenga (Host)
Also, you know you can't. He said he can't guarantee if the line is going to move. He said he's going to make the bet. He's going to show you or he's going to tell you what he bet, because he's going to use a screenshot at the end of the week at halftime of the games. But he can't guarantee that the line won't move, or anything. He's just going to show you what he bet, he's not selling picks. 

25:45 - Kirk Evans (Host)
He said 90% is just being on the right side, so it doesn't actually matter. The number doesn't matter. 

25:52 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
That's true, you said that before we need a calci market on how many times this guy's going to change his pricing up to NFL season, because I feel like this is going to happen every single day. 

26:05 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
It might happen again before this comes out. Joker delusion, like in on the joker delusional like that's part of the fun, because you always get enough of both. Yeah, to keep you sort of like flip-flopping, and that's the beauty of it. Uh, yeah, the three price adjustments in like three days. I don't think it gives buyers who are on the fence confidence, like now. 

26:26 - Jacob Gramenga (Host)
People are just like us and you have to mail a scalper is just gonna have to weigh them out, yeah this is insane. 

26:33 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
At this rate, like if you were on the fence. You're like I think I gotta weigh them out of you like another week. 

26:38 - Kirk Evans (Host)
It's true. I I also think, like the odds, that he's gonna properly have this tracked and know who he has to send the pick on. Thursday and Sunday. 

26:47 - Jacob Gramenga (Host)
That's what I was thinking. I think that's going to be a nightmare. 

26:50 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
Very unlikely Like well, he has a notebook to keep himself organized. I know some. I know some people don't really understand. 

26:58 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
I want to make a bet. The love for this. It like I just find this whole thing so fascinating. He, he's called out so many of what he believes are the bad actors in the space. Right, he's gone after people before uh, pamela maldonado, he's tracking kelly in vegas. Now, last year was adam churn off, but he's turned around and, kind of like, done something, which is probably even worse because he's actually selling the plays and I mean, I I'm of the belief that george doesn't really have an edge on the nfl. 

27:34 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
So this is, uh, it's tough okay, you are right, and that's what sort of makes it so fascinating. Yeah, like I said, like the, the, the first tweet delusional or in on the joke, but there are so many like tentacles to why this is freaking awesome yeah, that being one of them, I don't want it to go away. 

27:56 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Let me make it very how many? 

27:58 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
what odds would you give me that? George sides only sides, totals only. I don't want any part of the futures. The crazy shit yeah has a over. I know this is like an unfair betting way of looking at it, but but is you know what? Even plus a cent at the end of the year? 

28:20 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
size totals profitable and we can assume minus 110 on everything. No, because sometimes he's getting like minus one. 

28:27 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
He's authentic he one thing, george, is he's up front about what his number is, even if it moves against. 

28:33 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
I think we can just price this by assuming that he's a coin flipper and just like what his average price is going to be right yeah, it's not, it's not that unlikely that he can win over the course of the year like it's like 48, because I'm a rider I'm a rider, I'm a rider. 

28:48
So I don't want to send George money each week, yeah, but I would be invested that George is over 500 as like a bet instead of, it's true, like he could stop after there's so many things at play here that it's very difficult to price, like if he had to make, let's say, 100 bets or something like that say 100 bets or something like that. 

29:12 - Kirk Evans (Host)
He's probably not, though he says it could be like 13 bets, I know so then he easily could be profitable well, that's absurd if he's charging a thousand dollars for the year. 

29:18 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
But last year with his sides he was like seven and four, like he made 11 side bets yeah, that would not surprise me at all, but his volume slowed down after the good start. You know, he might feel like you know he's got four subscribers and he wants to give them picks, so he might force a couple. That's my concern. 

29:35 - Kirk Evans (Host)
I also think if he starts like six and two, he's releasing like four more sides for the rest of the year. If he starts one and ten, he's gonna be yeah, but if he starts six and two. 

29:45 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
He's not gonna pull the zilbert where he's like chase, for you know it's gonna be like 10 williams chasing 400 this summer. But you know what? 

29:54 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
I don't think he will, because the one thing I will say about george that is authentic with him is he actually always bets this stuff and he actually shows tickets. Every time he does a video he shows the take. 

30:07 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
Here's my bet this like he's really betting this stuff so it's real money and a pro can like snarf at it because like five hundred dollars a thousand dollars like to 99 of gambling twitter. That's more than the biggest bet that they're making on the nfl this week 500 or a thousand bucks, like, I think, for 99 of touts. 

30:28 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Let's just say they started like oh and 10 on the year. They're forcing volume afterwards For sure. I think with George he would actually be more likely to be after two weeks. Like I'm not making another bet this year, I'm shutting it down or whatever. Like I actually believe that. I mean, look at this. This guy is holding a handwritten piece of paper with prices written on it, like he's running a fucking lemonade stand and we can't stop talking about him. We like he it's. 

30:54
If this was any other person like I would be going in on them so hard every single week, but I literally cannot. I find it so entertaining. I cannot get enough. I know people get sick of it, but I want one way or another, him to be at an extreme early on in the year. I want him to go 10 and 0 in the first two weeks or 0 and 10. I don't want in between. No, 500 bullshit. I want to see situations where people send them fake checks, where he has to go to the bank and he gets charged like 20 because it bounces. I want all of that. I'm here for all the content surrounding this this year and the only thing I'll say is I don't think any other thing I'll say is I don't think anyone's taking this seriously, like I think there's differences between people who are selling their picks and really promoting it. I think everyone is in on the George stick schtick, which is why I think it's harmless and I wouldn't pass. 

31:48 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
There being a handful of people out there who just, george, truly entertains them. They might even be you know smarter bettors or you know just casual bettors, but they love the shtick and in the same way they're like I'm just going to glad hand, like they can afford it more than afford it, and they just are like, well, they want to glad hand the nonsense and they get enough kicks out of it. 

32:13 - Kirk Evans (Host)
That like you might not be setting the size? 

32:16 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
probably not. They just want, like I. I owe it to george to put air in his tires but if he's changed his price twice in two days, yeah, that's what I said. He's in a tough spot. 

32:28 - Jacob Gramenga (Host)
I don't imagine it's been a successful anyone get? 

32:31 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
yeah, if did any buyer get like, was there one buyer, does he get a refund? 

32:36 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
jeff, the year is 2025. No one can buy it, like there's a million electronic payment apps that we could use. I don't even understand checks in the mail western union, nobody's gonna buy this, yeah. 

32:49 - Jacob Gramenga (Host)
Well, what do they hack when they send the? 

32:50 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
$1,000. Me and johnny cornered him at bet bash see if he could throw in a free package for us. He refused. He was trying to work a business deal for a cross promotion with us. Like I'll throw one in, but we need some cross promotion. Uh, I don't. I I'm very much looking for I think I. I'm human, I like to laugh. This stuff makes me laugh and I want more of it during the season. 

33:12 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
It's lighthearted. 

33:13 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
The season is such a grind Whenever George drops a three-minute video. I'm going to watch it, I'm going to laugh. That's just my whole prerogative on this. 

33:20 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
We got to move on, I'm sure, but he's so lighthearted and honestly, when you look at the comments and the like, the vile shit that some people like say I don't say about the very cruel stuff that people say I mean he doesn't react to any of it. 

33:34 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Yeah, it's true, he did well. He just dropped his prices. That's his reaction. 

33:38 - Jacob Gramenga (Host)
Well, I think the no sales might be more about that well, speaking of pick selling, we're going to move on to steve fezik once again because, I'd say, a pretty humorous tweet came up that was brought up by Weston at Guy in Cornfields we feature pretty often, I'd say, on this show for bringing stuff like this to light and he talked about my guy at Mike Palm, circa, vp of Circa, the D and Golden Gate, mike Palm, dropping straight truth and absolutely body bagging two time contest champ at Fezzik Sports. So what was said in this segment here on VEASAN recorded at Circa, mike Palm was talking about a conversation he had with Steve Fezzik where Fezzik said if the Eagles lose week one Thursday night football to the Dallas Cowboys, week one Thursday night football to the Dallas Cowboys, they're going to get way more volume of people trying to play in Circus Survivor because they'll know so many people lost on the Eagles. Except what was noted by Mike Palm to Fezzik to his face at the time, was number one. Nobody knows how many people took the Eagles because the picks aren't revealed until Saturday evening. So there won't be any information on how many people are out on the Eagles. 

34:51
And, second of all, anyone who is in circus survivor wants to be in will already be in because 92% of the people who play circus survivor are not from Vegas and can't just show up after Thursday night football to enter into circus survivor. And Fezzik just would not accept that as an answer, and that was brought up on here. And Mike Palm dropped a pretty good bar here, says you can never tell him he is wrong. And Adam Orphan at aorphan67 says what a classic line. And I think that's just kind of where it's gotten with Fezzik, like for the type of content we do and the criticism that he receives. I think why people keep on taking shots at him is just because he never concedes, and I think it just. I think it's just spiraled out of control at this point and he's at the point of no return where he can never concede and he can never give people anything against them. What do you guys make on this? Let's start with you on this one, kirk. 

35:46 - Kirk Evans (Host)
Yeah, so well one. If you watch the video, I think the number was like 25 million. Yeah, is what he said, which there's no way Fezzik believes that, because that would be what's the contest. Like 14 million yeah. 

36:00 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
I don't remember. I don't know exactly what the this is for Survivor it's a 16 million, here it's 15, I think it's like over 19 now I was looking at, benson tweeted the numbers on the weekend. 

36:07 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
I think it's over 19 now I was looking at Benson tweeted the numbers on the weekend. 

36:10 - Kirk Evans (Host)
It was some egregious number. There's just no way. I probably agree with Fezzik that some more people will join, but nowhere near what he was saying. 

36:21 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
If this was an online survivor. I think a lot of people would. But to Mike Palm's point, you have to go and sign up in person. I'm not going to go and fly out to Vegas because the Eagles lose on the first night, just so I can have more survivor entries. No one's doing that. 

36:35 - Kirk Evans (Host)
No one is doing that because that's like very negative EV. But yeah, I think like I could see how Fezzik looks at us, always criticizing him and being like, oh, these people just hate me, like they are going to just say anything I say is wrong. I can see that. But like when it's the vp at circa saying, like fez, you can never admit you're wrong, like to me that should be like a moment of like whoa, okay, maybe I need to look inwards, but I don't, I don't think it will be. 

37:02 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Yeah. So, first and foremost, I I like mike palm a lot. He hosts, um, he m mcs yeah, I guess the uh, the bet bash hall of fame dinner every year and he's funny, he's good, like, he does a really good job with it and because, listen, some of those speeches they could get long. I think there was one this year that was 45 minutes. So I think mike palm does a good job with that. I laughed pretty hard when I watched this because it's kind of my exact experience with physic. 

37:30
Um, there are certain people in my life, friends of mine, that I just don't argue with because it's never going to get anywhere. Fezz is one of those people. Instead of just going in on Fezz, though, I will say that, generally speaking, just my, my philosophy on life and and I definitely used to be like Fezzik in some capacity where I was and I am argumentative, I would say but I think ego is very. You kind of need a little bit of ego to be a good sports better, like some level of confidence, but it can also detract from sports betting in a big way. We always talk about, like being open-minded in the space, updating your priors, like if I talk to people who are more informed than me, like, for example, a mike palm who runs the circus contest every single year and is in tune with it, and they're telling me something I am generally going to listen to someone who may be more educated in that than me. 

38:29
It's no different than if I had like a WNBA take, but I was talking about with Kirk and he's like, well, I completely disagree. I'm not saying I'm gonna completely change my mind based off of that, but I will process that information before I just like die on whatever hill it is that I wanna die on. And that's what I get personally with Fez through text messages over the last year or so. So, um, I I agree with Adam Orfin. You can never tell him he is wrong. That is a classic line, um, and I laughed pretty. 

39:01 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
I mean, I thought it was really funny certainly all rolled my eyes because you know the gambling hall of fame, yes, but I really do like Mike. Mike is great, mike is great, you I'm, yes, your topic. He is now so far above that it like does start to feel like in with people on twitter. He's like the easiest low-hanging fruit target now and maybe he's made himself. 

39:38 - Kirk Evans (Host)
We might need a break. 

39:39 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
But when you like now, when you do it, you're literally, you know, bragging that, you're picking an apple off like the lowest tier of the tree. 

39:49 - Kirk Evans (Host)
Yeah, and I don't mean I don't mean physics low too. 

39:51 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
I mean like attacking, like yeah, and people are just so it's almost like um. And I get people like how could you defend physic? This isn't about the other stuff where you tell me I defend physic, like just in sheer balls and strikes, internetting, yeah, like he is now. Um, it's almost unfair in some sense. 

40:12 - Kirk Evans (Host)
It's like he keeps doubling, tripling, quadrupling down and then we feel like, oh, we have to talk about it more and more and more, and then just it, just kind of. 

40:20 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
I would say that definitely with the physics situation in particular, there's been every time I kind of feel like it's, there's something that brings it back to life, like he'll just tweet about Flop. Like you know he'll just tweet. 

40:35 - Jacob Gramenga (Host)
And you can't ignore Mike Palm doing this either right, it has to get in the show. There's always new stuff. 

40:41 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
It's not like we're recycling it. It's a cycle. This is a show where we react to tweets from gambling Twitter that are garnering attention, and he has over 80 000 and he likes to play in the mud. 

40:55
He likes to muck it up. Sure, yeah, and people like to respond and, and, and that's just the way. Like I don't want to talk about him every single. I wish he would go on vacation or deactivate for like a month, just the, but I don't want to do it. But it comes up every week in the rundown and we all vote on the topic and it's like everyone's like voting yes on all these all the time, like I, I you know. 

41:17 - Jacob Gramenga (Host)
But uh, that's, there are certain people who they appear in our like potential topics list. We kind of just are now like none of us say yes to it anymore. I won't name any names, but fesik hasn't gotten to that point as of yet soon maybe, maybe soon. 

41:30 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
I mean, he did get in Jason's face so uh, you know that that kind of brought things back to life. 

41:35 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
He sent me a winner and said don't share it with giggles. Am I giggles? 

41:40 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
no, I think Jason was giggles, because Jason giggles and it won he should share, share some winners to his service as well, which is now down 80 units in the in the last nothing chase for hundreds, here it's nice that he could share winners with you privately, but all the people paying for the service? 

41:55 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
I don't know, I'm so true. 

41:56 - Kirk Evans (Host)
Every time it's like fresnick's now down 70 units, 75 units. 

41:59 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
Every time jeff comes, send me a winner, it's one and I'm sure he's giving like a lot of plays, but sometimes I'll just get like one, like a rogue play. I don't get like a sheet of of action. I don't know the. I should not. 

42:14
It's a but it's usually because when you guys talk shit or he comes up on the show he likes to show me what he's got and he hooks me a good one and I'm just telling you the sample size. It's like my, it's like mayo, my buddy pat mayo. He, you know we all lose a lot of money on on fleetwood. He's only ever bet pretty much fleetwood yesterday. You'd like to laugh that like, yeah, I don't know I'm getting, I'm my sample size is good. 

42:42 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
I I'm just saying I, I can't, I can't avoid it. The problem is now, now that I'm central to this, I literally can't Like. Even Fez has me blocked. I literally don't seek out his tweets at all, they just get circulated to me. Like it's week zero college football. I'm watching Kansas State. I'm like enjoying it. I'm getting messages like you'll never believe this Fez has already released five plays in the first quarter. It's not even done yet. 

43:16 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
I'm like I don't want to know this stuff, just leave. But I it, it just gets to me and, um, because it gets to me, they report, people love to report. 

43:20 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Send you carrier pigeon you the news. They love it. They love the people love it. I don't know what they, they just love it. They love winding you up too. 

43:26 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
I know that's what it is. It's not as much as it's as much, but they want to pick on Fez. They like to wind you up. 

43:32 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
We used to have in the old circles off studio. We had the chalkboard behind me which was like a show. Since Rob mentioned that he consulted, we have, we need like a Fez board and we try to try to get that number up to like four or five. We need to try to get through a month of shows. 

43:53 - Jacob Gramenga (Host)
We haven't even hit week one of nfl. It's impossible, hey. If there's good content, you know we have to discuss it. I think that's just the bottom line, and he keeps on giving us the good, so so thank you for that physic. Maybe we'll have another gem for next week. Uh, we're gonna keep it moving on the show, though. We're gonna get to your comments, as always. If you want to get involved in the discussion, maybe you have a comment on schindler sand, steve Fezzik, grp Wins, anybody. Put it in the comment section down below. We like to look through all the comments. 

44:16
Always, we like to pick three for each of these shows to discuss, get you guys involved with the show a little bit more, and if you ever want to alert us to a tweet like I don't know, a Steve Fezzik tweet like that, you can use hashtag, circle back on twitter and get a part of the conversation in that way as well. The first one comes in response to us discussing the fluff and calci situation, and john reed is in support of how the situation overall was handled. It's a pretty long comment here, but essentially uh said that when we actually cleared up the information, he didn't realize that it was like fluff had literally bet on an event where somebody had already retired and the event was still up. Now Flop obviously apologized quite a few times, quite a few times in that Friday episode and just took on the blame for the entire situation. But this is an agreement here saying that the fact that he knew means he deserves a 32K hit. 

45:09
I still think selling markets in any way that doesn't cancel all contracts or matches that don't play one point is wrong. But as Kirk said, no angle shooter is going to garner sympathy. So I just kind of wanted to use this comment from JohnRead91 to maybe get a little bit more discussion in how you reacted to Flup and how he handled it on the Friday show. Let's start with you, rob. 

45:31 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Yeah, I thought he owned up to the mistake and people make mistakes. At the end of the day, you got to assume responsibility for some things in life and he ultimately did. I mean, this happens all the time in the sports betting space. In terms of angle shooting, I don't want to get in. I might do a broader video on this at some point, because I think it's an interesting topic and we didn't really get like the sports book perspective on angle shooting either, which I think is entirely different as well. 

45:56
But yeah, you're not going to garner sympathy. People like it just doesn't happen. We've seen this a million times before. People like they post something like oh, this sports book is not paying me out, like tag them on twitter, do this, and and then you find out that they took some sort of angle shot and people turn on them and I think he just really misread the situation and especially what the public opinion would be on that situation. But I voiced my opinion. I think I don't wanna say he was in the wrong, but he knew what he was getting into and you gotta suffer the consequences sometimes. 

46:35 - Kirk Evans (Host)
Yeah, I thought he was too apologetic. I think the wrong, but he knew what he was getting into and you got to suffer the consequences sometimes. Yeah, I thought he was too apologetic. I think the only thing he did wrong was the tweet, which was spectacularly stupid. Um, like who? How he thought that that was a good idea still boggles my mind, knowing that he's a pretty smart guy. But yeah, people are going to angle shoot. I still they talked about it on the show that it was. 

46:50
It's impossible for calci to do something else in terms of avoiding bets. I don't agree with that. I think calci I think this is a stupid rule on calci that will come back to bite them in the ass when it's not someone angle shooting, it's someone who has a very big position on a tennis match. Maybe the market gets manipulated. I know calci has in their rules, um, that they can kind of set the price or it's the big whale, which is what calci is going to need more of, and the big whale loses 50 grand because they had a big position that went against them and they withdrew and the whale's gonna say think what the hell the game didn't happen. 

47:26
How did I lose this money? So I think it's a dumb rule. I think they should void these contracts. But yeah, I thought the tweet was dumb. I didn't happen. How did I lose this money? So I think it's a dumb rule. I think they should void these contracts, but yeah, I thought the tweet was dumb. I didn't. The angle shot itself was also pretty stupid, honestly. But everything in between, I don't care. If you're going to shoot an angle, shoot an angle. 

47:42 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
Okay, so just to bring the audience behind the fourth wall for a minute. I requested return fire. But when I like to look at the slides, I don't like to look at the comments why, yeah, those are the ones I'll skip. So I just have a quick thing on angle shooting. That was I want to call out the audience for and I don't know whether you want me to do it now or go for it, let's just do it, then rip it up, just a production note that'll be out of order on the side of the screen here, but we're gonna do return fire and maybe you can clip a part of this when you do your special. 

48:10
I was repulsed by some of the audience calling out um, you know people part of this network who would, who condoned angle shooting or taking them, and then some of the other comments about, um, you know, being friends with sports books or like respecting sports books. That might be the dumbest take in the history of the show. I I'm like I was shaking. I was shaking in my tomb getting some rest in daytona beach, like seeing some of the criticisms. Hey, the people who feel this way, these are the dumbest people. They would think. A stripper likes them, like that is the equivalent. Yeah, are you kidding me? I know you. Like, walk into costco. You're buying something that's supposed to be thirty five hundred dollars and that comes up twelve hundred dollars. What are you doing? Yeah, you walk into, like frank's hardware up the block. You don't let frank make that mistake. Yep, like it's like to people like the sports books. So we have to take, like it's, a two-way relationship. 

49:17 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
They wouldn't piss on you if you were on fire jeff, the system is rigged against the better, and when I say that I don't doesn't mean you can't, I don't even care, if you like, unless it's like your best friend. 

49:30 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
I don't care what it is they, you get them. You get them, yes. And to think that they're not out to kill you, it's like thinking you know the like I said. The stripper like actually is into you, you dumb fuck. Just to add on to what you're saying, which I totally, and I'm not talking about the guy who, who does like, actually work for a sports book, because uh vegas horse pools. 

49:55 - Kirk Evans (Host)
Yeah, he's obviously tweeting from like he works for spot huts, so I know yeah he's tweeting from a different perspective. 

50:00 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
There are actual like betters out there. Well, tweeting that like I like the stripper loves them. 

50:06 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Well, there's also, like some, some nuance to like vegas horse pools, right, I've interviewed him before here on circles off. He's mostly an arbor, right, and when you are, I'm not talking about that guy. Yeah, right, but when you arb games, it's very important for you to be able to get down positions on both sides regularly, like the bookie. Better relationship there needs to be stronger because you require those bets to go in on both sides and not get voided. So there's a different perspective there. But like there's juice, there's. 

50:36
Sportsbooks will do anything to to win. They will limit you as a player the vast majority of them, right. So in those instances I don't fucking owe anything to them. I don't owe it to them to not take a shot. I do know that if I take that shot, they can close my account and that's a risk I'm willing to take. I don't owe it to them to not take a shot. I do know that if I take that shot, they can close my account and that's a risk I'm willing to take. I don't owe anybody anything who's trying to take my money. 

50:56 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
They're my friend. 

50:57 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Yeah, it's ridiculous. 

50:59 - Kirk Evans (Host)
Yeah, also just on top of this, like I've bet on a lot of sports books and I've bet pretty big at some of them, other than exchanges, I don't even know who I would talk to. Like I don't have any contact, like I don't think it's a very regular thing. Maybe if you're betting in person you would know someone there. Like what am I gonna go spend 20 minutes of my day waiting for? 

51:21
like the customer service hey, there's a wrong line here, like I've one time hitman released, released a preseason play and Bookmaker moved Green Bay to plus 120. That was the spread, plus 120. Obviously, I clicked it. They canceled the bet. I wasn't going to tweet. How dare they cancel my bet? But who cares? If I thought it might risk my account, I wouldn't have clicked it. But I wasn't like, oh, I feel bad. 

51:51 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
You know the Ikea commercial, like the lady thinks she's getting the best deals ever and she's screaming to her husband at the car start the car, start the car. That's what it's like. You see a number, it's great You're at the cash register. They didn't charge you what you think, what the tag said, what you walked into the store thinking you had to pay, start the car we're getting out of here 100. 

52:15 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
That's the thing that kills me. It's a decision you're making like almost in a split second. People are like you got first of all the morality police and then there's the guys like, well, look at what you're doing to the ecosystem of betting. It's like do you think any fucking person is in the moment is thinking about that? When they see a bad line, like, oh, is this going to be good or bad for the ecosystem? People are betting to make money. That's why we're betting. I'm not saying that like I want to piss on every other person in the space, but when there's an opportunity to make money, and especially if it's your profession, you're going to go and you're going to take that opportunity. So I, I, the, and moral police. 

52:51 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
they think like we should look at them with some sort of reverence. Yeah, I'll speak for myself in this situation. I actually would look at someone like that who would tell the store like no, if you didn't charge me enough, like a big box store, you didn't charge me enough. I would think you are like creepy and messed up, like that Something was wrong with you, didn't charge me enough. I would think you are like creepy and and messed up, like that something was wrong with you. I wouldn't think like, oh, reverence, for how his moral clarity? I would think something is fucking wrong with that. 

53:20 - Kirk Evans (Host)
I'm happy you did this. 

53:20 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Return fire yes, I could return fire on that entire show from friday. 

53:24 - Kirk Evans (Host)
So I'm glad you, you, you brought that no, I wasn't more on the audience honestly not the whole audience. But well, I saw a commission storm on the panel. I don't, I don't have to pick my spots with return fire lately because I disagree with pretty much 95 of knish's takes. 

53:39 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Oh, but uh, yeah, that's, uh. No, that was a good look. I actually saw kurt getting heat. 

53:45 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
Yeah, I know people are um. I was like shaking and like who these people are. 

53:50 - Jacob Gramenga (Host)
Yeah, rob the vegas horse pools guy was like mad at you he thinks he wasn't mad at me. Well, he wasn't mad like I will say you should be setting a better example for the industry. 

53:59 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
I understand that, but he comes from a very, very different style of betting, completely different perspective. I, I mean to each their own. I'm not. If that's the way he wants to bet, fine. I, I mean, he's a lot better than me. He's like the equivalent of Mother Teresa in the sports betting space. I am not personally. I see an opportunity to make $100,000 at the expense of a sports book or someone else. Guess what? It's? Dog eat dog. That's the sports betting space. 

54:26 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
It's not apples to apples, that's not apples to apples. That's not like you see a mother with her kid and she drops a $100 bill Like excuse me, ma'am, yeah. That's not that this is not that, as much as I said that I handle that situation very differently, 100% Right, I agree with you. 

54:44 - Kirk Evans (Host)
And exchanges you can get a bit. It can be a bit gray A lot of the time on an exchange you're probably going up against a very big institution, but you don't know that. But I agree totally with you on when it's just pure sports books. 

54:58 - Jacob Gramenga (Host)
Well, we'll keep it moving. Then We'll get back to the comments. The second comment comes from Deli, with three E's on the end. 2313 says I'll be honest, guys, when it comes to tout services, buyer beware. End of discussion. I agree with bringing it into the public light scum behavior of services, but at the end of the day, it is the responsibility of the buyer to do adequate research on what they are buying. Nothing more needs to be said in my opinion. Yeah, I'll start with this because I actually have a pretty strong opinion on it. But it's just like there are a lot of people who don't know what to look for and I think that's the biggest issue with it. And people who don't know what to look for and I think that's the biggest issue with it and a lot of these pig selling services are predatory of that. They know that. There are a lot of people who don't know the red flags, so I think it's very important to educate people on what those red flags are. What do you think, rob? 

55:47 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Yeah, so I strongly disagree with this tweet because I think that the sports betting and gambling industry as a whole is very different from other industries. So oftentimes, when you're buying other products or services, you have lots of avenues to research Tons online. Right, you have Google reviews. I mean, I booked a handyman today to come install TVs and shelving in our building. I can thoroughly research, I can read through reviews that doesn't exist in the sports betting space. Thoroughly research, I can read through reviews that doesn't exist in the sports betting space. You go to the store and touch it A hundred percent. There's lots of scenarios in other industries where you can actually do adequate research before you make a decision. You're booking a vacation. You can read reviews on Expedia. You can do a lot of things In the sports betting space that doesn't exist. It doesn't really happen. A lot of times there are tout review websites. They are actually run by the touts themselves, which is sad because they just affiliate to themselves. 

56:49
I've been in the space a long time but you cannot really do your due diligence in the sports betting space. You go to a website. You want to buy picks from anyone. You're going to see their record on their website. How are you going to verify that? You can't anywhere. You know there's just there's too many barriers for the average person and, like Jacob said, the average person doesn't know better. Like the average person doesn't know what the difference is between a good pick seller and a bad pick seller. And that's why, even though I agree that there actually could be good pick sellers, I do advise people for the most part just to steer clear of picks. 

57:24 - Kirk Evans (Host)
Yeah, I think there is a percentage that falls on the buyer and I think there's a percentage that falls on the tout and that percentage moves depending on what tactics the tout uses. 

57:37
For example, I think I've brought this example up on the show before, but like there was a tout I saw years ago who was like up hundreds of units but then if you went into their plays it was like 10 units on bonus bets that were really good in one unit on everything else. 

57:53
You can figure that out exactly that I can't, because, like there is just a massive informational gap, especially if the tout is being like specifically scummy and and wants the person to believe that they're a lot better than they are. So I think a percentage does fall. Like at the end of the day it does fall on you somewhat, but considering how much of an information gap there is, like no one would blame someone going into a store and buying a t-shirt and then it turned out that they thought it was like a balenciaga t-shirt but then the place was selling uh, like fake t-shirts and it was just a cheap knockoff. Like that's not really on the buyer ever. So I think in some senses or in some instances, touts can be like that, but if a tout is honest about their record, then more of the percentage falls on on the buyer you got nothing to add. 

58:46 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
Yeah, if you buy that shirt in a nice store, you'd expect it to be real. Yeah, if you're buying it on like a street corner, you'd expect it to be fake. 

58:53 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
And to kirk's middle point, like when we first launched bet stamp, we had a marketplace right where we allowed people to track verified picks, which we had to verify we're at a sports book and then they could sell through the marketplace. And the idea was like if people are going to buy, at least let them have a verified, documented record of who they're buying from. But then you start to notice that a tout will go down like, let's just say, $1,000 and they'll put in like a $30,000 play when their average unit was 500 bucks. And I personally could go through the history and I would see that. But the vast majority of people they didn't even know that. That was something that was weird. They just thought, oh, he really liked this game, he would. And then we kind of just removed the marketplace because we're like it's. The average person is just not educated enough to understand when they're being misled. 

59:46 - Jacob Gramenga (Host)
Yeah, I mean, there are a few people who tried to reach out in those days as well, trying to get, get the pics deleted whatever days as well, trying to get get the pics deleted, whatever. 

01:00:01
Start a new account. Oh yeah, we went through it all. Yes, absolutely, uh. Final comment comes from a name that's attacking me at ac altair. 

01:00:04
Seven says I think we mostly agree that in-person meetups with someone you hate online always humanize the person and for some reason that makes us think they're not all that bad. But it seems that, uh, that's only because they fell short of our hate expectations. There's an old saying that even a certain German politician born in Austria loved dogs. The overuse of that historical figure aside, I think it's pretty fair. People who we only know for bad deeds usually come across better in person. But if we hated their acts before we met them, then we should really keep that same energy. If Yanni came across better, cool If he still did all that scammy stuff. One's opinion really shouldn't change that much. Let's start with you on this one, jeff, because I think there was a reply on Twitter about how you said you would have anxiety about getting a coffee knowing that all of a sudden somebody could just come behind and start yelling at you about something you said on this show six months ago. So why don't you lead us off here? 

01:00:58 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
That was probably taken a bit out of context, like I would have anxiety it just you just don't want to have to worry about getting yelled at when you're just trying to get a coffee. Yeah, like I'm in that bubble and I'm just here doing it. Yeah, I guess you're at a conference and you say things. I think that got taken out of context. But you meet people, that's real, yeah, and maybe you just, you know, like someone you don't go as hard on them. That's, I don't know. I got nothing. 

01:01:27 - Kirk Evans (Host)
Yeah, I just think this is a good take, like if you're a, if you're nice in person, but do something bad, that doesn't like absolve you of the bad thing you've done. 

01:01:37 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
So I think it's just a good take, I agree, I agree. Just to clarify, obviously again, like meeting someone and talking to them is just like another data point. I guess if I was like trying to relay it to the sports betting world, it doesn't mean that you know, just because Yanni Degree came up to me and said, hey, like related to the sports betting world, it doesn't mean that you know, just because yanni degree came up to me and said, hey, like you have a problem with me and like he explained his side of the story, doesn't I process that information? But I still formulate an opinion and I I was pretty up front with him about how, um, you know, I I bought a lot of picks when I was younger and I was misled and I saw him doing like a lot of misleading practices and you know we had a conversation again. It was private. He kind of explained to me why some things happen. 

01:02:19
But, yeah, I, I that doesn't mean I'm just going to snap change my opinion on someone. It doesn't Um, but it is. I will say it is nice. I know a lot of people get after me. They're like, oh, like, why do you talk to these people? Why do you give them the time of the day it is better to have those interactions where you can understand it a little bit more, because for me, a lot of times I really struggle to understand why someone might do something that they're doing. 

01:02:55 - Jacob Gramenga (Host)
So to hear them rationalize it a lot of times I might not necessarily agree, but I do appreciate having that conversation. At least I know of a lot of people, like I saw quite a few people at Bet Bash who folded and were not the same person in person as they were online. But, I think I felt like everyone with our network kept the same energy in person. 

01:03:07 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
I mean the rumors are that Jason folded when, confronted by Fezzik, he did run away, tail between his legs came back. He was so flustered when we saw him in that ballroom afterwards. 

01:03:18 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
Do you know, jason, I didn't say this? Last week I got a wife who's got three kids. He calls my phone at like 1.30 in the morning. Oops, I didn't know there was a time difference and I usually don't keep my ringer on, but it was on that night like oh what did you say? 

01:03:42 - Jacob Gramenga (Host)
what do you pick? Did you pick up? No, what did you say did you text me? 

01:03:46 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
I just never call me again. Lose my number. Lose my number in fairness to jason. He was signing up in Survivor for me Not at that moment, he didn't have to call me at night, but there was some back and forth that we were having. But I guess he was too into it that he forgot the time difference. 

01:04:06 - Jacob Gramenga (Host)
On our next topic, we talked about prediction markets earlier on and there's a comment here or a tweet here from Raph at CalvinRidley73. Just a user of Gambling Twitter says, going to make the bold claim that turning everything into a betting market will be an extreme net negative on the world Will be hard to decouple with all the other terrible shit going on, but it feels like a uniquely awful aspect for any functional society. So we've given a lot of praise to CalSheet, not just because they are a sponsor, but we do value having the ability to bet on a lot of these unique markets and having liquidity in some of them. So, Rob, let's start with you on this one. What's your take on this? Do you think that these sort of markets are bad for the industry and a net negative to the world? 

01:04:51 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
So I'm not going to pretend like I don't love having a lot of betting markets, because I do. I love them. I like being able to like look up you know, political markets, pretty much everything. In some aspect, I actually do a lot of life planning based off of betting markets. That might sound really sad to some people at this point, but there's so much liquidity in these markets that I do view them as fairly accurate in terms of, uh, planning ahead can you just give an example, like, because I like, if you're going, will the weather be this on these days? 

01:05:23 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
it's a great spot, it doesn't rain this time of year. Like what do you mean? Um, will the price of milk be x by x day, which means I'm buying it today? 

01:05:34 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
gasoline, bitcoin, a crypto price trading, for example. When will bitcoin reach this amount? Uh, will this happen first? Uh, with certain prices? That's just like a random example, but I know the bitcoin's a good one actually, yeah for because I I'm not a crypto trader anymore. 

01:05:48
I don't keep up with it. Um, maybe some people might argue nobody knows shit. Why are you paying attention to, while there's like tens of millions being traded on this stuff? I at least believe in the power of the market. I do understand this point of view, though, as well. I think that there's a fine line Like I don't view personally, just in my opinion. I don't view prediction markets as good or bad. I just view them as like a tool. Essentially, that's my viewpoint on them, but certainly there are things where you push the boundary like a little bit too far, where it's like is is this person going to be living by the end of the year? Like we probably don't need to be betting on. 

01:06:29 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
I don't like the life and death stuff agree well like even politicians. Will this person be nominated? That person? 

01:06:35 - Kirk Evans (Host)
be, nominated. 

01:06:36 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
I honestly don't even think it's that weird. If, like, there's a celebrity trial and you want them guilty or innocent and even people I know made a lot of money but stuff on like will this country bomb this country? By this day like something that's resulting in people like dying. I don't think that there should be a market I'm with you. 

01:07:00 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Not every aspect of life like will the war end? 

01:07:04 - Kirk Evans (Host)
no, I actually I actually don't agree with you and and I argued, I've been arguing that I really like prediction markets before calci was sponsoring this and you can go back, and I responded to this tweet as well. Well, you. 

01:07:15 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
You are um noted sportsbook sympathizer. 

01:07:18 - Jacob Gramenga (Host)
He actually had some choice words for calci a little bit earlier on. Yeah he said that's another thing by the way pizola forced flop to apologize. 

01:07:27 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Like I don't force anyone to do anything, we have a pretty open forum on this show. 

01:07:30 - Kirk Evans (Host)
Just wanted to throw that in there but I think we're in a world that truth-seeking is becoming more and more difficult and I agree, like to me. There are obviously markets that are really bad, and this is a stupid example but I think a very good one of a horrible market with the dildo thing, with the wnba, because people were betting on it and then just doing it like you can't put up markets that are self-fulfilling like you can't put up a market that a guy can just go into an arena and throw a dildo Like then, then the truth seeking becomes. 

01:08:02
it becomes like prophecy of like you put up the market which is resulting in things happening, but like there are so many things that I just have no idea if this is true or not. See something on twitter, I don't know. So having betting markets to help with truth seeking, I think, is more beneficial than the negatives, especially because this person be alive by this day I don't understand that has like a dystopian vibe to it. 

01:08:32
I don't know, I think war is a good one of. Like you know, trump says I'm gonna end the russia ukraine war on day one in office. Okay, he's making this claim. Should I believe that he can actually do this? I can go to a prediction market and see, and and that's something that's being maybe a war ending? 

01:08:50 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
will this country bomb this country by this day? I think is. I don't think there's truth, seeking to that. 

01:08:58 - Kirk Evans (Host)
Yeah, but I do because I think you see, oh, tensions are rising between these countries, oh, there's a 2% chance that they're at war in the next month. Oh, okay, then it's probably being like overstated. 

01:09:09 - Jacob Gramenga (Host)
I also value that. 

01:09:10 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
This is how it could also affect my own life like that's where I do see value in markets like that as well. It's like random. I don't even want to give real life examples, but let's just say you know there's some sort of tension in the middle east or something like that, that you know nothing like that well I mean, let's just hypothetically, hypothetically, let's just that's not the thing you preface by. 

01:09:32 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
Let's just say theirs, theirs. Like there's other things you say, let's just say, sure, I picked the wrong continent, the wrong part of the world. 

01:09:41 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
You did, to give a hypothetical, you did the reality is this is what I mean by with life planning, though like, what will impact, like the price of oil as a random example, Like could this real life event that's being priced as like 80% probability right now? What are the repercussions of that? Yes, the trickle down effect of that happening To me. That's something that I really enjoy now, Like I enjoy, you know, the evolution of me as a sports better, Now I bet less sports. Most of it's automated. I don't need a lot of to invest a lot of time into what I'm doing. I most of it's automated. I don't need a lot of to invest a lot of time into what I'm doing. I like to look at prediction markets now, Like that's just my thing, but I also like to look at them for life planning purposes of, like, how will this affect my retirement next five years? Do I want to move money from here to there? 

01:10:31 - Jacob Gramenga (Host)
And uh, I'm not saying like it's perfect, but I find it very fulfilling, honestly yeah all right we'll move to our final full-length topic on the show today the new cbs host on cbs sports hq, and it is mikey over, mike over, formerly of book it. Uh, book it we know for doing I think it's fair to say recreational sports betting content and Mikey Overer, talking about how surreal the moment is, thanking everyone who supported him and getting on this show, says let's pay for some drinks and there's a photo from the show. But I also saw clips from the show giving out various pics on this betting show, so this caused a bit of a stir on gambling Twitter. Let's start with you, kirk. Why do you think that was the case? 

01:11:16 - Kirk Evans (Host)
yeah, like, I think mikey over is like a perfect person who people will hate on our side of gambling twitter. Yeah, being hired by cbs is is crazy in my opinion, but I guess good for him. Like can't. Can't really shit on him. He, this is a pretty cool spot to be, but if I was the head of CBS, he's probably not the guy I would fire. Yeah. 

01:11:43 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
This is like their sports line brand, which has existed, I want to say, going on like almost a decade now. This is pre-PASFA. I think that they launched that brand. I remember back in the day Nick Costos and like Todd Furman and others were there. 

01:11:58
I don't want to make this about Mikey over. It's nothing personal. I find him insufferable. But I don't, like, I don't want to go down that path. This is more of like an industry path. 

01:12:08
I would say that I want to talk about a little bit because you know you, you want you look at other networks. If I turn on Food Network, right, and I'm going to watch a program on Food Network, there's not going to be someone who made an omelet once on Food Network. There's going to be a professional chef. It's going to be a food critic. If I'm going to go turn on HGTV, it's not going to be some guy who learned how to put up drywall on YouTube. It's going to be like a seasoned contractor. 

01:12:37
And the sports betting space doesn't operate like that. It doesn't. And to me it's so weird that an industry this large that it could potentially have so many repercussions on humans because of everything associated with gambling just turns to people who don't have that experience right, and I understand that there's something for entertainment. I understand you're trying to hit certain demographics I get all of that and I completely understand it. But it feels like kind of like a fantasy camp now when, especially a brand that you know we talk about, jason, having the lack of journalistic integrity you know, for for a long time cbs would be viewed as a brand that you would hold in in high regard, like 60 minutes, like you know I'm getting, but it's just all incentives they're not incentivized to have someone smart. 

01:13:27
Yeah, but but sports betting is more than just like what the industry has turned sports betting into picks. Yeah, and it's so much more than picks, right, it's like managing your bankroll, like knowing all these little things. 

01:13:39 - Kirk Evans (Host)
Don't want to hear that. 

01:13:41 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
I understand this I can make this shorter so people can get what's happening here. At the end of june I got an email from someone in talent at cbs sports, so just to show you what they're looking at. Now we've had some interactions and I've been ghosted. Yes, since kind of rude. You can like at least follow up, but yeah, so just to show you where they're looking because book it mikey over his life and he became the prime. 

01:14:05
I don't think it was for some college football stuff either. But I'm just saying like just to give you like a laneway into what they might be looking at on the fort right. That's all you kind of need to know Whether I got it or didn't. And it doesn't seem like it. It just seemed like just to give you the lane as to what lane they want to walk. 

01:14:26 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
I'm not pretending like I don't get it, like I get it. And, by the way, like you know, reading his tweet, to be on a show like CBS Sports HQ talking ball is a dream come true thanks to anyone. You know that is a dream come true for a lot of people, right, and I don't blame him. Like, this is nothing. Per again, like I said, that's not the type of content I'm geared towards. I don't blame him for taking that job or anything like that. Even on the CBS front, I completely understand the dynamic of why they would want to go in that direction. I just find it a little bit um, sad, I guess is. Is really what it comes down to? Right it again, it's just, it's, it's. There are very, very few industries. 

01:15:07 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
Sad is they're just playing. I think people overrate. Uh, how much people want to bet or care about the betting? 

01:15:20 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
like when they want, when they watch someone, like, like, like how much? 

01:15:23 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
yeah, like I think people grossly like your one percent world view. Yeah, I think, um, and you know the people who watch this show like it is a strictly entertainment uh thing. Now it's dangerous because gambling is in a very, dare I say, evil. Yeah, and don't cut that out. Yep, because I'll argue it's evil for what? A lot of these, a lot a lot of these companies are doing and that's dangerous and the networks are taking the gambling money, but they're just looking to entertain. 

01:16:01 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
That's all they're looking to do right now is entertain and be entertaining, right, and that's sort of my point, right Is, if you look at I mean, a lot of industries are going that way you look at ESPN and like the hot take type of stuff that they're doing now and I get it. But there used to be a level of kind of like when you were given a platform, there was like a level of analysis and responsibility. 

01:16:24 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
Yes, and it's, it's lacking now, and not only you assume the person talking is taking responsibility, you person, you assume the person hiring yeah and and yeah, I mean cbs, that logo, yeah, home of the nfl, home of the sec. There's a level of accountability that they should have, I agree let's get into the chopping block on today's show. 

01:16:51 - Jacob Gramenga (Host)
This is all the stuff in this show that did not require full scale segments we still wanted to discuss, and I opened the show by calling jeff not only a chargers superfan but a tommy fleetwood superfan. And, my god, he's done it. Tommy fleetwood is finally a champion on the pga tour. Uh won the tour championship this weekend. Uh, jeff, I know you were busy, but uh, did you catch any of it? Do you see the final round? So? 

01:17:14 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
I caught the final like four holes. I asked the pilot if I could jump out over Atlanta and get to East Lake on my way home from Daytona. He didn't want any part of that. It's beautiful. Now again, we said it'd be humorous. He gets like season-long champion very funny. 

01:17:31 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
It's amazing. 

01:17:32 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
But only 30-man field. This doesn't really take away the questions and the haters, like next year. As soon as he does something wrong or doesn't come through on sunday, they're, they're gone. I mean, they're out with full force I all this? 

01:17:45 - Kirk Evans (Host)
no, no, okay, I'm still right yep, so I'm not. 

01:17:49 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
I'm right. All this changes, rob, is that with graphic Guy with the most top twos, top threes, top fives, that graphic doesn't exist. This does not change and it helps like it's a good moment because it's a chirp. It would have been an evil chirp for him to have to deal with the rich Long Island kids at the Ryder Cup. That's a good chirp. But this does not remove the gutless loser label. If people thought he was a gutless loser yesterday, this didn't change it. I disagree. 

01:18:22 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
I think once you win in sports, it changes the label. I'll tell you, ovechkin is the prime example. 

01:18:28 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
Rory still blows something after winning the fucking Grand Slam, people still chirp him, but that happens with everyone in golf. 

01:18:35 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
It will happen with any tournament where you win and you don't like you're leading and you don't win I disagree you look, tommy fleetwood not only has now won the fedex cup, you remember the last rider cup? Yeah, he clicked he clinched it for them against ricky fowler as well, like there's no, you know I'm not saying I agree with the criticism. I'm saying, if you think the criticism is gone because of this choker label is in the trash forever, not a chance trash forever. 

01:19:04 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
Holy shit, what planet do you live? The? 

01:19:08 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
planet where every single athlete who never won for a long time finally won. Yeah, the choker label, don't get me wrong I'd love for next year. 

01:19:16 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
He goes on like a chesco molinari sort of run and wins like more and something really special. But if you think one 30 man thing out dueling patrick cantley, where scotty scheffler's bogey? 

01:19:28 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
is not going to remember. 

01:19:30 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
It's a 30, I'm not talking about the average fan, doesn't think tommy fleetwood's? 

01:19:34 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
a loser. They do, though if you're. If you're just an average casual fan of golf, you tune into highlights. You don't watch pga tour every week. You think tommy fleetwood is a loser. 

01:19:42 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
You've seen him gag, but I mean they're not the people like now he's. 

01:19:45 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Now he's won the fedex cup I the second. 

01:19:48 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
He blows a two-stroke lead on sunday and all he's got in this pocket is this 30 man thing. I don't know what. I don't know what you think happens, but but. 

01:20:00 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
But my point is that it won't be any different than any other golfer who blows a lead going into the final round on Sunday. I won't don't think it will be any different, I agree, but that's not really like anyone he is not the lifetime choker label is gone yes, the only thing that's different is the chiron. 

01:20:18 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
The graphic that goes up no longer has his fucking name. That's the only thing that yesterday changed. And don't get me wrong, thank god, that graphic no longer has his name. 

01:20:29 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
I'll tell you what's going to change the expectation from everyone that he's going to blow. Every tournament is changing. 

01:20:36 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
Once you know when he has one. That's the expectation. 

01:20:39 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
But now when he has a three stroke lead going into Sunday next year. It's not the. The talking point isn't will Fleetwood blow this again? It's gone. 

01:20:48 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
That talking point is gone. Like Josh. Like Josh, let's say, you take a quarterback. Yeah, you know it's easy now because he's never won a playoff game. Justin herbert, he wins one playoff game. 

01:21:01 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Yeah, then he sucks in the next playoff game. 

01:21:02 - Kirk Evans (Host)
Yeah, you think that, like the one playoff game is not the pinnacle of the sport, people will go easy on him because he won the week before you're saying one playoff game is equivalent to this 30 man, but if he won the masters like herbert won the super bowl, then it would call then you never, of course. 

01:21:15 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
That's like yeah, that's what this doesn't. I don't think this quails anything, but the graphic can't come up anymore when he's in contention his name isn't on it when it happens, it's your hard thing to measure yeah, well, yeah, all I know is thank god he won. 

01:21:30 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Tommy was the fucking man if you don't like, tommy fleetwood't like you. I can say that very clearly. 

01:21:36 - Jacob Gramenga (Host)
Exudes class. The next topic for the chopping block is in reference to the Barstool Beachout, because our old friend who used to be one of the panelists on the Friday show, jeff Nadu, attended this weekend. I honestly don't understand what Barstool Beachhouse is. Is it like a reality show? 

01:21:54 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
It's a reality show on twitter, but it's only on social and only on social media. I thought it was. When I first heard of this idea. I will admit I thought it was the absolute dumbest thing I've ever heard in my life. I'm like where is the show? I just someone tell me where I can get the show. 

01:22:11 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
I think when I first heard that they were doing a beach house with 12 people from both sexes with like the barstool vibe yeah, I'm like this is going to be like awesome, but I needed like 30 minute, 12 minute end of day recap. You know what this did. You know what this did. I can't I'm perpetually online. Yeah, if I can't keep up, I check the fuck out and it was an impossible pace to keep up with and there was nowhere for me. I'm not scrolling 50 tweets with videos. Make a 14 minute show. 

01:22:49
Like they do stool scenes and then I like it more. Once I'm like I don't know the storyline. It's almost impossible to find out the origin of it. 

01:22:59 - Kirk Evans (Host)
You need confessionals like that's like what makes reality shows reality shows is like someone goes into a room and talk shit about the other person. 

01:23:07 - Jacob Gramenga (Host)
The issue with this is that, like all this stuff is happening in real time these people are talking about. There's no way they can shut their mouth for, like, release the episode. It doesn't have to be exactly every other day. 

01:23:17 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
They've got guys, they've got a kid pulling an all-nighter that's editing it's fucking barstool. It doesn't have to be like a day and a half after. I just want like day one, day two, day three, like a 14 minute show. This is good supplemental, or you could even say that show is supplemental, but but without it it's impossible as far as I'm concerned. 

01:23:37 - Jacob Gramenga (Host)
Well, anyways, back to the specifics. For the chopping block here, jeff Nadeau was there. I have a video of him chatting up a lady at a nightclub, but the one that made the most rounds on gambling Twitter was posted here by Bluebeard at Backdoor Beard, which is not me, by the way, we were in the same room together at Bet Bash, so confirm, we're not the same person, says I doubt there's a better 45 seconds on the internet. That sums up Ole Jeffrey and I don't know these people other than Nadeau. I'm not a follower of Barstool in any way, but anyways, he got pressed by this guy here. Do we know who this is? That's. 

01:24:15 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Nicky. 

01:24:15 - Jacob Gramenga (Host)
Smokes. He got pressed by Nicky Smokes over a message after Nadeau pulled a Jason. He went up with a smile went to go shake his hand and say what's up, and Nicky Smokes started pressing him over some tweets about not wanting to go to the Barstool Beach house, this not being his scene, and I have to admit. 

01:24:34 - Kirk Evans (Host)
It was a message that said he would backhand him if you. Yeah, he said he'd give him a back. 

01:24:37 - Jacob Gramenga (Host)
Yeah, back home, yeah and in the moment when nadeau had the opportunity to backhand him, uh, uh, as pointed out here, to do really struggled to look him in the eyes, even turning away from him, saying that the texts were fake. It wasn't him and uh, overall I gotta say it was a pretty bad look for Nadeau. I mean, he couldn't even look at the guy after talking shit like that. That was an awkward watch. What do you think? 

01:25:02 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
I'm into Nadeau Like. That doesn't mean I think he's right or perfect, Just indifferent than George, but the same. I'm just fully entertained. 

01:25:21 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
And there are moments where you think he's so in on the bit and then there's moments where you like is he delusional and it's that like fine line that I can't resist. I just can't resist it. I find him incredibly entertaining. Um, I used to hate to do when he first came on the scene. This is like a decade ago. 

01:25:31
We, probably we have probably some beefs on the internet from back in the day, uh, and I've really grown to like him, um, both as like an entertainer and a person. Um, I thought this was a bad look for him, though, because you, when you, when you talk shit about so, especially when you you threaten like physical violence on them, you have to be willing to kind of back it up when they especially when the guy gets in your face. 

01:25:55 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
How old is? 

01:25:55 - Jacob Gramenga (Host)
Nundu 36,. It says that's also okay yeah. 

01:25:59 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
It's like the line that might be, like the border on, like what's acceptable to be engaging. 

01:26:07 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Well, the bad look was that he denied. He even said this Like he pretended, like it didn't. Like he's not. I never said that Backhand you Like no. Like he pretended like it didn't like he's not. I never said that backhand you like no, it's like I. I didn't say it was fake. Yeah, he's like that's not, it's not real. I don't, I don't know what to believe, but they showed it right on the screen while it was happening of course, like they do. 

01:26:23 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
You know he's got bravado, but in person he's a bit of a teddy bear yeah, it's okay. 

01:26:29 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
um, yeah, whatever I I I actually once I found out that he was going to be at the Beach House, I was very much looking forward to seeing the content that was going to come out about that. It's good content, oh yeah. 

01:26:39 - Jacob Gramenga (Host)
I think at least. The next one comes from Farley Betts, who we've mentioned on the show before. He doesn't sell picks, does he? He just gives out. 

01:26:48 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
I believe he sells picks. Yeah, he's a subscription package. Okay, so he sells picks subscription package. 

01:26:56 - Jacob Gramenga (Host)
Yeah, okay, so he sells picks, I believe. Yeah, he does a lot of work in the nfl. He won a quarterly contest, I think, last season, uh, and some nba stuff as well yes, which? 

01:27:01 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
um. You know, we featured several of his nba tweets last year, um, where he went on to have a significant losing year. 

01:27:08 - Jacob Gramenga (Host)
You can continue uh, anyways, it doesn't. He doesn't like rob very much. He doesn't like, I guess, he just his whole thing is thing is that he can watch the game and he can come up with better numbers and better bets than people who would model out games and run simulations. Anyways, this tweet he says, I'm happy to report that I actively ignore pretty much every human on earth who has an opinion about the NFL, which is good. Because you'll ignore this. You may not think that's wise. Many suggest I reconsider. But one thing that is not adequately tracked the net impact of other opinions on one's ability to see and think clearly on a weekly basis when betting the NFL. In my opinion, no factor is more crucial than that. Rob, that's his opinion. But what is? 

01:27:54 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
your opinion? Well, certainly not mine. He can enjoy the echo chamber that he lives in. It's just his own mind over and over. 

01:28:00
I will say one of the getting away from Farley. I don't want to be specific to him, but just generally speaking. I think one of the biggest assets that I see from the best bettors in the space is their ability to absorb as much information as possible and then parse that information. I think that's. I don't want to speak in like absolutes, I don't think you must do that. There's probably originators out there that might be next level just doing their own thing, and I can say from experience when I first started modeling hockey, I did do my own thing and had a lot of success doing it before, over the years, starting to incorporate some other stuff. But I think, generally speaking, it's actually a good idea to do the exact opposite of this and absorb as much as you possibly can, and not all of it's going to be good. In fact a lot of it will be garbage. But I personally find it useful and I think most of the betters that I know that have a lot of success do the same. I don't know what your experience is, kirk. 

01:29:12 - Kirk Evans (Host)
Yeah, so I have two buckets here. I actually think that, in terms of subconsciously getting in your mind, it is a good thing to avoid the Dove Kleinman that's his name, right. 

01:29:25 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Yeah. 

01:29:26 - Kirk Evans (Host)
The preseason hype. I think seeing those videos can seep into your subconscious, even if you think, oh, this is so dumb. You see 10 tweets, oh, this guy's horrible in uh training camp. But like you don't read anything else, like I can see how that actually would seep into your mind. But on the. So I actually think ignoring that stuff as much as possible is quite good, but like the idea that you're not going to like try listening to some experts, especially in the nfl, when there's so many players, so many positions, like it's just an advantage to be able to aggregate people's opinions and kind of parse out what you think, so that I would very much disagree there's no scenario in like any industry, where you're going to get smarter by like sticking your fingers in your ears. 

01:30:16 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
That doesn't happen. Like just that's how education works in across anything, not just sports betting, right. So again, I think that ego is we talked about this earlier in the show. I think there's a certain level of confidence you have to have as a better, because if you're not willing to bet your edges or you lack confidence, that that to me could be like one of the most catastrophic situations for any better. But you also have to like bury the ego at some point and understand that there are other people who might know better than you on specific subjects or that you can learn something from Now. Farley doesn't model. Uh, to my knowledge, he's not like a modeler, he's more like intuition. I like this side and this and that he's a ball knower. 

01:31:02 - Jacob Gramenga (Host)
He knows ball man. 

01:31:04 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Right, you know ball I'd like to think I do, but there's people who know ball a lot better than me and I learn a lot of things from them but you don't even like, even at the base. 

01:31:11 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
Like, even if you think you're the smartest, you don't even like, even at the base. Like, even if you think you're the smartest, you don't have to think these people know more than you but they could still have other smart people with something to offer. And just because I it's not my purview but if, as an originator, do you like, originate without the noise and then you see what else, or the see what else or the noise helps you just, and deciphering that goes into the origination or it's both, obviously. 

01:31:40 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
It's um. For me it's very constantly iterative. So you have a general idea of how to build a model or how you want things structured and you can backtest like specific metrics that might be. You know valuable um and use those. But I will say I don't know. I don't want to give the name of the person or the sport either, but I can confirm that one of the dumbest people I know that I listened to pretty regularly do content, actually said something a few years ago that got me thinking, uh, hypothesizing, about something else which I started testing and I was like, uh, no, I would, I started testing and I was like I said it didn't I uh, no, I would. 

01:32:18 - Jacob Gramenga (Host)
If it was you, I would have said it was you and I would never call you one of the dumbest people I know. Was it, uh, on one of your favorite podcasts? 

01:32:24 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
I'm not revealing any more information, but something was said that that really got me thinking and led me down a path that exponentially improved my betting in a specific sport. So I'll leave it at that. But to each their own. This is just my opinion. There might be some people out there who they can't parse all this information and maybe they're just better off tuning everything out. That's certainly possible, but from my own personal experience, I do like to um I I do like to listen to a lot of stuff did n't? 

01:32:57 - Jacob Gramenga (Host)
he didn't? Farley threatened to fight you a while ago. I uh, was it a bet? Bash he was. He was planning it's it's possible. 

01:33:05 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
There's been a lot of stuff that's happened on this show. I've received a lot of threats let's put it that way. 

01:33:10 - Jacob Gramenga (Host)
Uh, the next comment or the next tweet come from amanda vance, pick seller in the space, uh, who we believe, based based on the information provided on our website, she is not a winning bettor providing a winning service, but anyways. A tweet came from Alex Kuzora, who posted a video of a Steelers defensive lineman, derek Harmon, a recent draft pick by the Steelers. Emotionally, he's carded off the field during today's game, so he was upset, got injured, likely going to be missing time in the NFL, and Amanda Vance responded by saying fucking, waste of a pick. Calling it a waste of a pick after a person got injured Pretty bad look. Also digging in the heels when she got a lot of shit for saying that. She quoted it by saying Steeler Nation, chill the fuck out. 

01:33:55
It wasn't a bad pick, but your first round of getting hurt in preseason does not make it sorry. Your first round of getting hurt in preseason does make it a wasted pick. You think I'm happy with him being hurt. I want to win a damn Super Bowl. So I mean doubling down. I guess actually on this one here. I guess actually on this one here. I think it was a pretty rough look. 

01:34:16 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
What do you think, Jeff? Just the nut love Just like so repulsive, like so bottom barrel, like just gross. 

01:34:27 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Yeah, I have a lot of similar reactions whenever there's tweets like this. Amanda Vance will not be the first or last person to tweet something like this off an athlete injury. 

01:34:44
Usually it's a burner, though, that she's just thinking like we're not getting a production from a pick slot this year. My first thought when I see stuff like this is like I can't imagine thinking this process, this process, like I can't imagine my brain working in a capacity where I see a player on my team getting carted off, crying, leaving the field and thinking fucking waste of a pick, but then, on top of it, to actually put it out into the public has to be like the lowest level of intelligence I, I you could possibly have as a human. Like what do you? So then I start to think to myself is this done potentially for clout? Like it does she want it to blow up in the way, and that's even fucking sadder if that's the case. So all around it's sad. 

01:35:29 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
In some way or another, I think I gave you too much yeah, I don't think, I don't think she's thinking about the second move, it's deplorable. 

01:35:35 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
It's such a vile tweet and then to dig the heels in, just send an apology and be like you know. I mean, at that point you're cooked anyways. It's not like you can do anything after the original tweet, but yeah, that's awful. 

01:35:49 - Jacob Gramenga (Host)
Really bad. Yeah, didn't like that. Next one comes from Barstool Sports, talking about the Bengals, who are quite notoriously known at this point for being a pretty cheap organization. Perhaps we didn't know it went to this extent, though the tweet reads cheapest franchise in sports, Boomer Esiason, and I hope I said that right calls out the Bengals Esiason. What is that? 

01:36:11 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Oh man. 

01:36:12 - Jacob Gramenga (Host)
Esiason, yeah, esiason, you are going to get grilled, Jacob. Boomer Sison calls out the Bengals for making their legends pay for their own flight, hotel and extra tickets to the Ring of Honor game. So I do know him as a I don't know what it's called for the Bengals but like the level of excellence, the Ring of Honor or whatever, I believe he is a member of that. So him and many others who were there for that or it says ring of honor in the tweet. 

01:36:36 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
I'm an idiot. I believe they're celebrating. They're celebrating in a, the an afc championship team, the one that montana diced yes, there's been a humor in that. 

01:36:46 - Jacob Gramenga (Host)
I think originally that they're celebrating no no, no, no, no, no. 

01:36:51 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Boomer is a legend for the team. 

01:36:52 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
I don't think that's a we, that maybe it's because I'm a cheer for a loser team. I don't think it's that weird for them to bring back a bunch of legends and then decide this was the 25th anniversary of the only time we went to the Super Bowl. I don't think that's. 

01:37:12 - Jacob Gramenga (Host)
Both teams celebrate the teams that won the Super Bowl. 

01:37:14 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
I don't know what teams you cheer for. 

01:37:17 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
That's not true, We've had this conversation. Hold on. That's not true this was Nick's playoff. 

01:37:21 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Every team does this. This was Nick's playoff conversation, except some teams win the Super Bowl. Every team does this. There's different expectations for different franchises your favorite teams do this. I don't know what you're talking about. I'm trying to think of the giants. I feel like the giants would would reserve this for super bowls. I'm sure I'll get proven wrong. 

01:37:41 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
But no, but sometimes it's just to honor a like, honor a player like if you won the super bowl, then yeah, they have the super bowl to celebrate, that's what I'm saying. 

01:37:46 - Jacob Gramenga (Host)
I'm roasting the bangles. Yeah, this is your super bowl. 

01:37:50 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
He's saying that like celebrating a championship game is is kind of like no, but like. Instead they're like bringing back like a group that, like a lot of the fans like, yeah, I think I know that's what it is, a hundred percent that it's like when the cowboys all finally honored jimmy johnson again here's the thing. 

01:38:10 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
And now the guys that pay for the season's tickets. They were eight years old then and they like it like now they're 40 no, I have no problem bringing back the legends stadium but. 

01:38:20 - Jacob Gramenga (Host)
I to celebrate a like a championship game I I. It showcases the state of the franchise I mean, I, I can't. 

01:38:28 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
I kind of have a problem with bringing back the legends and getting them to pay their own way. We got a different track. 

01:38:33 - Kirk Evans (Host)
We got off on a different but yes, for sports teams, like the people they're honoring, have to pay pay for the hotel and extra tickets and the article actually goes on to say they supplied the players with discount codes yeah, like that embarrassing and this is the stuff that people don't realize but matters a lot like ownership just matters so much in sports and this is just the nut low of ownership to do this. 

01:38:58 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
I would honestly say maybe this is stretching it a little bit too far but I get drink tickets. 

01:39:03 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
But I feel like when your franchise gets labeled as like a cheap franchise it. 

01:39:09 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
It has like trickle down effect on free agency and like all sorts of things, right old? 

01:39:13 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
man brown is in a class amongst himself in pro sports and now he looks around the room and he's like the only guy. That guy owns home depot, that guy owns walmart, this guy they got the team from that. This is just old man brown in the corner. He is a true one of one in modern sports. But not just being like this is lower than like yeah, for his reputation to get worse is hard. Yeah, and they managed to do it, and that's no easy task there, yep. 

01:39:49 - Jacob Gramenga (Host)
It's true. The next one, and I think it's actually the final one we have for the show today, comes from Greenberg and Betterman at GB Lawyers, and I've seen a lot of these ads popping up on Twitter recently, but essentially they're offering representation in the court of law over gambling losses. It says losses on sports betting apps may qualify for legal claims. Lawsuits allege many sportsbooks apps utilize predatory tax tactics to hook users. Follow the link to check eligibility in less than 40 seconds and it shows a link to seek representation. It says sportsbook addiction lawsuit seek compensation for your losses. Um kirk, I don't know if you've had this pop up in your feed, but what was your reaction? 

01:40:33 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
notorious losing better. I'm sure you have Kirk. 

01:40:35 - Kirk Evans (Host)
I have not. I hadn't heard of this until you sent it in the slides. 

01:40:40
I'm cooked If I'm the only spot of everybody and I'm not a legal expert, but this is not surprising to me at all. I've said this on the show a bunch of times. I've seen plenty of accounts that are down, absolutely massive, that allow for unlimited uh deposits, massive bets, uh predatory practices, and these sports books are not allowed to do that like there are rules of what is required for them for responsible gaming. So, yeah, this is not surprising to me at all and it wouldn't surprise me if uh some sports books like lost these claims it. It's not again, not a legal expert, but it's not surprising you could see a case where it I don't know. 

01:41:21 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
It could like go to trial and like a sympathetic jury like says you know what you manipulated, yeah all these dopamine hits over the years you're truly evil tactics. 

01:41:34 - Kirk Evans (Host)
I mean especially if the betting behavior was like clearly way excessive to the salary they put in and the deposits were super aggressive and the vip account, because they're so hard hard about terms of service. 

01:41:48 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
One way, yeah, that there should be like an obligation to uh tos. On the other, I'm not saying it's likely to happen, but I'm saying if this got in front of 12 strangers you didn't know much about gambling I could see how someone could make the case easy and convince them that boy, oh boy, it is as evil as this man is saying. 

01:42:08 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
It is bingo like my take on this is. I'm actually just interested to see where this goes, because there's kind of like not really a precedent for this at this point, but all these little things that a sports book would do to encourage you to play like, for example, like there's book sports books on days where I haven't placed a bet that will send me a push notification, like half an hour before games start and say, like our, you know, they'll offer promos, they'll do this and that, depending on your definition of predatory and I think that's definitely going to have to be argued in something like this I could certainly see a case where an average person or a judge views those tactics as predatory. 

01:42:46 - Kirk Evans (Host)
Um, so I I'm really interested to see if, if this picks up steam and where it goes if it does yeah and I was actually thinking about this last night as well of like it's very, very rare for uh better who is sharp to not to fall through the cracks and not get caught. So the idea on the other side is that if they are so uh able to find sharp betters, they should be equally as able to find problem betting. 

01:43:17 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
Agreed 100%. If they could do it on one extreme, they should be able to do it on the other extreme. Oh please, right, that's the case. 

01:43:24 - Geoff Fienberg (Host)
That's the case. 

01:43:26 - Rob Pizzola (Host)
There you are. You can join the Bo Wagner law firm and be part of the lawsuit. 

01:43:33 - Jacob Gramenga (Host)
Great way to end off the show today. Thank you so much everybody for tuning in to circle back here in the circles off channel. Again, it's the educational entertainment content division of the hammer bed network. But so much great content coming your way, especially as the NFL season begins. Head over to our forward progress channel with a link in the description to catch up on all the content over there and get ready for all the content on the hammer HQ, our main channel across all sports. We have excellent content coming later today. We also have the hammer daily launching very, very soon. You will not want to miss out on. But make sure for this channel you've subscribed, make sure you hit the like button, comment something down below. We'll see you on friday for another episode of circle back.